Understanding God’s election

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K

Kroogz

Well-known member
#3,146
Dec 5, 2023
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#3,146
Cameron143 said:
I get why you don't answer.
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22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared (Passive voice)for destruction?

23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared(active voice) beforehand for glory,

Notice something missing in verse 22?

God fits for Glory. Vessels fit for destruction.

Easy peasy if we don't have bias.

2 Tim 2:21~~
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be an implement for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#3,147
Mar 17, 2022
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#3,147
Blain said:
Jesus is the key that is the thing the whole argument of election boils down to him and him alone the focus is on preordained when the focus should instead be Jesus
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You hit the winner there.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#3,150
Mar 1, 2022
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#3,150
Kroogz said:
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared (Passive voice)for destruction?

23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared(active voice) beforehand for glory,

Notice something missing in verse 22?

God fits for Glory. Vessels fit for destruction.

Easy peasy if we don't have bias.

2 Tim 2:21~~
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be an implement for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
Click to expand...
This has been my position all along. If you read back to the post that I responded to, you will find that someone posited double predestination. I was making the case against it. Sounds like we agree. Men fit themselves for salvation.
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

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#3,151
Sep 2, 2020
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Inquisitor said:
Do you mean when they here the gospel?

That seems to be the line in the sand that God drew.
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I’m saying our sins are what seperate us from God and is the reason we need to repent and believe the gospel.

“but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i was saying a persons sin is the thing that separates them from God like Adam and Eve or like cain. Believing the gospel is the thing that came after to save mankind from thier sins .

man was separated from God because of mankind’s iniquity and the gospel is God coming to reconcile that problem of man’s tbat separated man from Gods intimate presence with us
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
#3,152
Sep 2, 2020
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#3,152
Cameron143 said:
This has been my position all along. If you read back to the post that I responded to, you will find that someone posited double predestination. I was making the case against it. Sounds like we agree. Men fit themselves for salvation.
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“among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#3,153
Mar 1, 2022
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#3,153
Cameron143 said:
This has been my position all along. If you read back to the post that I responded to, you will find that someone posited double predestination. I was making the case against it. Sounds like we agree. Men fit themselves for salvation.
Click to expand...
This should have been...men fit themselves for destruction.
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#3,154
Feb 17, 2024
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#3,154
Genez said:
Bullies like to brag and boast...
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Then this "bully" challenges you, your sidekick CV5 and most especially Inquisitor to interpret Rom 1:13 and Rom 11:13. Can any of you post anything of genuine substance or are you all stuck on your second childhood.
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#3,155
Feb 17, 2024
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#3,155
cv5 said:
God's definition of "death" is separation from Him.

You are making the HUGE mistake of thinking that Adams fall is the "future/eternal death".
This only happens after the GTW judgement in the lake of fire.

This is DEFINTELY not the case today, despite the inane ignorant ravings of the Calvinites.
We living souls are NOT created "eternally dead", already condemned.

And if we were already condemned at birth, Christ would have come in vain,
because it would have been too late as the FINAL JUDGEMENT WOULD HAVE ALREADY BEEN RENDERED!
And FINAL JUDGEMENT has NOT yet been rendered. It is yet future. Get it?

Christ came to give us RENEWED life, eternal life, abundant life, and reverse the curse.
This is definitely possible under the present state of circumstances of man.

Adam was separated, yes. But only by degrees. Not completely, not permanently.
Why? Because the Bible makes clear that Adam was a "special case". Thats why.
His sacrificial love being the crucial factor.

I mean God is certainly on speaking terms with mankind right?
Adam did not keel over after he ate the fruit right?
Adam was not cast immediately into the lake of fire right?
God was interacting with Adam and Eve and their progeny post fall right?
God has made covenants with men right?

=================================================================

And AGAIN, the clueless Calvinites got all of this "spiritually dead" business ALL WRONG man.
They get it all wrong I'm telling you.
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cv5 said:
God's definition of "death" is separation from Him.

You are making the HUGE mistake of thinking that Adams fall is the "future/eternal death".
This only happens after the GTW judgement in the lake of fire.

This is DEFINTELY not the case today, despite the inane ignorant ravings of the Calvinites.
We living souls are NOT created "eternally dead", already condemned.

And if we were already condemned at birth, Christ would have come in vain,
because it would have been too late as the FINAL JUDGEMENT WOULD HAVE ALREADY BEEN RENDERED!
And FINAL JUDGEMENT has NOT yet been rendered. It is yet future. Get it?

Christ came to give us RENEWED life, eternal life, abundant life, and reverse the curse.
This is definitely possible under the present state of circumstances of man.

Adam was separated, yes. But only by degrees. Not completely, not permanently.
Why? Because the Bible makes clear that Adam was a "special case". Thats why.
His sacrificial love being the crucial factor.

I mean God is certainly on speaking terms with mankind right?
Adam did not keel over after he ate the fruit right?
Adam was not cast immediately into the lake of fire right?
God was interacting with Adam and Eve and their progeny post fall right?
God has made covenants with men right?

=================================================================

And AGAIN, the clueless Calvinites got all of this "spiritually dead" business ALL WRONG man.
They get it all wrong I'm telling you.
Click to expand...
Then explain how God raises the spiritually dead in this age to life.
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#3,156
Feb 17, 2024
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#3,156
Genez said:
Death is defined in various ways in the Bible.
Such as Abraham being almost 100 years old was said to be sexually dead.
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I thought it was Sarah's womb that was dead? Abraham was fine. He was on Viagra. :coffee:
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#3,158
Feb 17, 2024
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#3,158
Kroogz said:
"The reprobate like the elect are appointed to be so by the secret council of God's will" (Calvin's Institutes II, chapter xxii, page 11) and "...their doom was fixed from all eternity and nothing in them could transfer them to a contrary class..." (Calvin's Institutes III, chapter iii, page 4).

"...Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is either predestined either to life or death" (Calvin's Institutes III, chapter xxiii).
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I'd say the Calvin's Institutes were right on! God did create TWO lumps out of one. And I don't think he solicited anyone's blessing or approval before he decreed that in eternity.
 
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