Understanding God’s election

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Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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The part of GW that I don’t see you including in your hermeneutic is hell. It is a wicked God indeed who forces some sinners to be saved and the majority to suffer. No, it is Divine love that is unconditional and forgiveness that is conditional upon sinners willing to accept God’s grace by nonmeritorious faith.
How can God "force" himself on the helpless? Is that what he did with the Israelites when he delivered them from Pharoah? Why can't you see God (and His Son, for that matter) as the Good Samaritan? Did the Good Samaritan in the parable "force" himself upon the helpless, half-dead crime victim when he rescued him from his plight? How come the NT teaches that sinners are helpless (Rom 5:6), making it necessary for God to rescue his elect (Col 1:13)?

And how does God "force" sinners to suffer for their own sins, especially since sinners love their sinful lifestyles? Is God morally obligated to bestow saving grace upon any sinner? Or is any sinner entitled to that saving grace?

You're thinking with your emotions instead of your head.
 

Cranberry

Active member
Dec 7, 2024
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We do not know what Adam may have known.

Adam had open discourse with God Himself and unhindered discourse at that.

It is pure speculation to assume what Adam may have known.
I disagree it is speculation Adam chose to sin when Adam did not know right from wrong. Good or evil.

Eve persuaded him to eat. Neither of them actually knew the potential consequences of their actions.
 

Cranberry

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Dec 7, 2024
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Not conscious of anything to exist? What do you mean by that? He knew God. He named all the animals. He knew Eve.
True. He was insulated in Eden.He knew nothing else but divine creation,reality.He didn't knowevil,wrong,Lucifer, he didn't know betrayal.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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@Pilgrimshope its the flesh that's the issue, yes I have been saying that all along!!! Hey I am at work getting buried under it.
Yes so have I sister just we’re coming at it from different points

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism,

wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, ( born again by faith through baptism Into his name ) who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

One has to hear the gospel in order to make the decision to get baptized and be circumcised we aren’t “circumcised until we hear and believe and get baptized in his name

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-7, 11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Even then sister we still have combat with our flesh and spirit and have to choose to follow the spirit and not the flesh

If we really study Paul’s letters we see a n his teachings an ongoing conflict between the flesh and spirit of believers

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13, 16-26‬ ‭

Or another example

“Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: in the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:5-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there are encouragements and warnings cinder ing our behavior . Teachings showing the results of each choice revealing that we are free to serve God through the spirit or the flesh through lust.

mankind wasn’t always like they were when Jesus came they became servants of sin because they committed sin and worshipped idols not only israel but all nations created thier own gods and worshipped and Israel joined them as well. In the beginning man onew zgod and then they rebelled and over time made themselves his enemy and provoked him to great wrath and anger in thier rebellion against his kindness and provisions and warnings of certain death if they didn’t repent

promises of life of they did in the middle part of scripture man became lost and needed the gospel
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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The part of GW that I don’t see you including in your hermeneutic is hell. It is a wicked God indeed who forces some sinners to be saved and the majority to suffer. No, it is Divine love that is unconditional and forgiveness that is conditional upon sinners willing to accept God’s grace by nonmeritorious faith.
Agree.

And Satan accuses God of many similar things day in and day out. And Jesus says PRAY so that you DON'T BELIEVE SATAN.
The "temptation" spoken of here is to believe the LIES OF SATAN as regards his accusations toward Holy God.

Mat 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from (THE evil ONE) G4190 : For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Mat 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked G4190 one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mat 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked G4190 one;

1Jo 2:13
I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. G4190 I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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a well yes if I was trying to study you I’d be way off the rails but it’s a biblical discussion forum let’s see if I’m off the rails from the scripture or of Roman’s two rings true throughout

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:23‬ ‭

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12‬ ‭

maybe it’s just me but I think I’m still on the rails again I’m not on your tracks but I’m on the rails o want to be on provided by mounds of scripture I don’t have to ignore and pretend doesn’t apply or exist
But YOU aren't saying anything. What's your point? You proof text, proof text, proof text, nothing. You haven't made any point for these scriptures to reinforce. I finally realized this about you, you always debate this way. You kind of just let the other guy assume your belief, and you throw a ton of scripture out there to back you up, but you never actually make any concrete claims and stand on them.

Look I know I'm jumping in here and I promise I'm not trying to "attack" you here, but I just noticed this and had to ask about it. Right here in this comment, what is it you're trying to back up with these scriptures? Because reading them, from my perspective and without you making your point clear, I'd say you're trying to make a point that we are all judged by our works. Again I don't KNOW that because you never make a clear point, but I'm curious to know what the point really was, not what I think it might be. It makes it very hard to know what you mean when you don't use enough of your own words.
 

Cranberry

Active member
Dec 7, 2024
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How can Eve obey when she doesn't know right from wrong?

And if Adam and Eve were made in the image and like ess of God why were they no longer in their divine state,glorified embodiment of God by his design when after they consumed forbidden fruit they were then like "one of us",knowing good and evil?

They were in the image of God first,then could not be allowed to remain in Eden because they had his gnosis,knowledge,too?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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How can Eve obey when she doesn't know right from wrong?

And if Adam and Eve were made in the image and like ess of God why were they no longer in their divine state,glorified embodiment of God by his design when after they consumed forbidden fruit they were then like "one of us",knowing good and evil?

They were in the image of God first,then could not be allowed to remain in Eden because they had his gnosis,knowledge,too?
They put themselves on the throne where God alone belongs.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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How can God "force" himself on the helpless? Is that what he did with the Israelites when he delivered them from Pharoah? Why can't you see God (and His Son, for that matter) as the Good Samaritan? Did the Good Samaritan in the parable "force" himself upon the helpless, half-dead crime victim when he rescued him from his plight? How come the NT teaches that sinners are helpless (Rom 5:6), making it necessary for God to rescue his elect (Col 1:13)?

And how does God "force" sinners to suffer for their own sins, especially since sinners love their sinful lifestyles? Is God morally obligated to bestow saving grace upon any sinner? Or is any sinner entitled to that saving grace?

You're thinking with your emotions instead of your head.
Yes, providing no possibility of rejecting God is forcing His will to be done, and not providing the possibility of salvation from suffering is Satanic. This is logical, so you are the one being emotional.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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It is a wicked God indeed who forces some sinners to be saved and the majority to suffer.
How is anyone forced? Scripture says those given by God to Jesus will come, and those who do He will
not cast out. Do you see that as a violation of their free will even if they make the choice to respond?


People claim they understand the other side but they don't really. They always badly mangle and misrepresent it like you just have.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,491
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Yes, providing no possibility of rejecting God is forcing His will to be done, and not providing the possibility of salvation from suffering is Satanic. This is logical, so you are the one being emotional.
God desires a willing child not a forced one right?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,628
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But YOU aren't saying anything. What's your point? You proof text, proof text, proof text, nothing. You haven't made any point for these scriptures to reinforce. I finally realized this about you, you always debate this way. You kind of just let the other guy assume your belief, and you throw a ton of scripture out there to back you up, but you never actually make any concrete claims and stand on them.

Look I know I'm jumping in here and I promise I'm not trying to "attack" you here, but I just noticed this and had to ask about it. Right here in this comment, what is it you're trying to back up with these scriptures? Because reading them, from my perspective and without you making your point clear, I'd say you're trying to make a point that we are all judged by our works. Again I don't KNOW that because you never make a clear point, but I'm curious to know what the point really was, not what I think it might be. It makes it very hard to know what you mean when you don't use enough of your own words.
Sounds good God bless
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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How is anyone forced? Scripture says those given by God to Jesus will come, and those who do He will
not cast out. Do you see that as a violation of their free will even if they make the choice to respond?


People claim they understand the other side but they don't really. They always badly mangle and misrepresent it like you just have.
And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them. For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel; not to many people of a strange speech and of an hard language, whose words thou canst not understand. Surely, had I sent thee to them, they would have hearkened unto thee. But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.

………..But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth, let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house.”

‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭3:4-7, 10, 17-21, 27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes have they closed; Lest they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should be converted, And I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:24-31‬ ‭

Who wasn’t given to Jesus?

“Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, When his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭2:8, 12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32-33‬ ‭
Your not making a distinction between what he said tonisrsel specifically about that people and what is said of everyone not under that covenant which blinded them
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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How is anyone forced? Scripture says those given by God to Jesus will come, and those who do He will
not cast out. Do you see that as a violation of their free will even if they make the choice to respond?


People claim they understand the other side but they don't really. They always badly mangle and misrepresent it like you just have.
Not sure what you think I don’t understand because you just agreed with me: People have a choice to respond or to reject. This is how God can be both all-loving and omnipotent.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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They put themselves on the throne where God alone belongs.
Absolutely wrong, and if you care to hear the lectures, you would know better.

And Adam.......IS A TYPE OF CHRIST! The most remarkable and poignant type in all of Scripture.

It is Satan who desires to steal a throne.

Is Jesus a type of Satan? No.
Is Adam a type pf Satan? No.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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God desires a willing child not a forced one right?
More than that, Jesus God desires a willing BRIDE!

And what's more, the Jewish wedding contract DEMANDS that the bride has the benefit of informed consent.
She has both the will and the LEGAL means to say NO!

The Calvinites ignore all of this. When in fact all of it is FOUNDATIONAL to all those who believe!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Yes so have I sister just we’re coming at it from different points
I can't really see it that way especially since now you are saying being born again is not a real thing.
“Born again “ isn’t literal it’s a concept . Where our sins are all taken away and it’s like we’re born anew without the weight of our sins also we take on a new identity in this process

When we believe the gospel and get baptized in his name our new man is identified or “ born in Christ “
Being indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit is not euphemistic. Here again your definition of what flesh means varies quite widely from Scripture, and my understanding. The very thing that is indestructible and incorruptible about us is the Living Word of God indwelling us. So very much is said of being born in Adam, the first man, and needing to be reborn, born again of the Spirit, into the second or last Adam, and you say none of it is real. The man of the flesh according to Scripture is incapable of obeying, loves sin, is darkness itself, suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, is blinded, taken captive to the will of the devil, is hostile to God, and the gospel message is foolishness to him, but you say this man can freely choose to believe that which he cannot understand and is hostile towards. I do not agree one iota with that assessment and you thinking we are in accordance is far far far from the truth of the matter also. The heart of the man needs to be changed before he is freed from his sinful nature enough to make the proper response. This is not your belief, but it is mine, and I have stated it many times, and the crux of our disagreeing with each other. You can agree that the corruption of man started with Adam but then despite Adam's sin which corrupted all of creation you say it took a long time for man to become bad even though the second man murdered the third man! How much more corrupt can it get than that? And this is only touching upon barely even mentioning the wicked things men did to each other and does not even begin to address the wickedness of men in relation to women.