Understanding God’s election

[GWH]

What Biblical assumptions?

Here is a simple question Rufus.

Who is Paul speaking to in these verses from Romans 7, shown below?

Romans 7:1
Or do you not know, brothers and sisters for I am speaking to those who know the Law.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound,
so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Then explain the verse below.

Romans 1:13
I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that often I have planned to come to you,
so that I may obtain some fruit among you also just as among the rest of the Gentiles.

Rufus are you saying that Paul is never addressing the Jews in Romans?

If Paul is directly addressing the Jews in Romans how come he did not state that
in the introduction?

Who do you think the "we" and "us" are in Rom 5:8-10?

The Jews because that's who Paul is talking to.

Here is what Paul stated in Romans 5.

Romans 5:5
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were brought to light by the Law.

Only the Jews had the Mosaic law, Rufus.

Romans 5:8
But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind;
for apart from the Law sin is dead.

You and I were never under the law.

We are not descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

We are not circumcised.

We were not in covenant to obey the book of the law.

Gentiles are not and never were under the Mosaic law.

So you can be absolutely Paul is talking to his bothers and sisters, the Jews.

Paul addressed the Gentiles in RM 1:6-15,
both Greeks/Gentiles and non-Greeks/Jews in 1:16-17,
talked about immoral non-Christians in 1:18-32,
addressed unrepentant judgmental people in 2:1-16, saying that God's kindness and patience are meant to lead them to repent and
be saved on judgment day, that God does not show favoritism in declaring who is elect, whether Jew or Gentile
addressed Jews in 2:17-29
addressed Jews with Gentiles present in 3:1-31
addressed Jews with Gentiles present in 4:1-17, and including Gentiles in 4:18-6:23
shifting focus back to Jews in 7:1-25
included all in 8:1-39
focused more on Jews in 9:1-23
included all again in9:24-10:21
shifting focus back to Jews, but including Gentiles in 11:1-36
addressing all in 12:1-15:6
specifically addressed both Jews and Gentiles in 15:7-19
ends by addressing all in 15:20-16:27

 

[Rufus]

Apparently none, per pope Rufus.

Well...I'm still waiting for you to find that mysterious, hidden gospel that proclaims pardon to all young ones who die an untimely death.

P.S. Your wishful thinking doesn't count as biblical proof.

 

[Intersection]

Maybe there is some hope for those not of the elect. Could it be that those not of the elect will not get saved until they believe Jesus Christ as the elect do?

 

[Rufus]

What Biblical assumptions?

Here is a simple question Rufus.

Who is Paul speaking to in these verses from Romans 7, shown below?

Romans 7:1
Or do you not know, brothers and sisters for I am speaking to those who know the Law.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound,
so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Then explain the verse below.

Romans 1:13
I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that often I have planned to come to you,
so that I may obtain some fruit among you also just as among the rest of the Gentiles.

Rufus are you saying that Paul is never addressing the Jews in Romans?

If Paul is directly addressing the Jews in Romans how come he did not state that
in the introduction?

Who do you think the "we" and "us" are in Rom 5:8-10?

The Jews because that's who Paul is talking to.

Here is what Paul stated in Romans 5.

Romans 5:5
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were brought to light by the Law.

Only the Jews had the Mosaic law, Rufus.

Romans 5:8
But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind;
for apart from the Law sin is dead.

You and I were never under the law.

We are not descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

We are not circumcised.

We were not in covenant to obey the book of the law.

Gentiles are not and never were under the Mosaic law.

So you can be absolutely Paul is talking to his bothers and sisters, the Jews.

Why don't you first answer the questions I asked you instead of evading them with long-winded tomes that ask me questions instead?

When you say that Paul is writing to the Jews from chapters 2 thru 11, do you mean he was writing to Jewish believers, Jewish unbelievers or both?

Secondly, to whom was Paul directing his comments in his opening remarks in his epistle (Rom 1:7, 13)?

Whenever you get the answers figured out to those two questions, get back to me.

 

[Rufus]

Maybe there is some hope for those not of the elect. Could it be that those not of the elect will not get saved until they believe Jesus Christ as the elect do?

Unless God has decreed a person's salvation in eternity past, that person will never come to Christ.

 

[Genez]

God can, and does, save certain babies from the womb, but not all babies. That was also true with
David's infant son


[Psa 22:10 KJV] 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly.

God only allows for those whom God knows would believe, to die before they reach the age of being accountable.
So, all babies that die, are saved by means of God's omniscience knowing whom to allow to die such a death.

 

[Genez]

Well, truly we have jumped the shark on this thread.

Now the Calvinites are casting babies into the lake of fire.

No doubt this madness was going to come out in due time inevitably.

Cold logic allows for such conclusions.

Just as, cold logic is the means to accept TULIP.

 

[Genez]

Unless God has decreed a person's salvation in eternity past, that person will never come to Christ.

God decrees salvation?

Untangle that for me, please?

 

[rogerg]

God only allows for those whom God knows would believe, to die before they reach the age of being accountable.
So, all babies that die, are saved by means of God's omniscience knowing whom to allow to die such a death.

Hmmm. Interesting. In which verses do you find that stated?

 

[Rufus]

Paul addressed the Gentiles in RM 1:6-15,
both Greeks/Gentiles and non-Greeks/Jews in 1:16-17,
talked about immoral non-Christians in 1:18-32,
addressed unrepentant judgmental people in 2:1-16, saying that God's kindness and patience are meant to lead them to repent and
be saved on judgment day, that God does not show favoritism in declaring who is elect, whether Jew or Gentile
addressed Jews in 2:17-29
addressed Jews with Gentiles present in 3:1-31
addressed Jews with Gentiles present in 4:1-17, and including Gentiles in 4:18-6:23
shifting focus back to Jews in 7:1-25
included all in 8:1-39
focused more on Jews in 9:1-23
included all again in9:24-10:21
shifting focus back to Jews, but including Gentiles in 11:1-36
addressing all in 12:1-15:6
specifically addressed both Jews and Gentiles in 15:7-19
ends by addressing all in 15:20-16:27

Rom 1:16-17
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
NIV

You evidently don't make a distinction between a writer's original audience (the people to WHOM he is actually writing) and when a writer talks about different people. Paul is most definitely not talking TO Jews or Gentiles in the above passage. But he is talking ABOUT two different ethnic groups. If Paul was addressing both Jews and Gentiles in the above text, he would have said "first for YOU Jews, then for YOU Gentiles". But that isn't what he said.

 

[Rufus]

God decrees salvation?

Untangle that for me, please?

Romans 9. God decreed the salvation of Issac and Jacob, while decreeing the reprobation of Ishmael, Esau and Pharaoh.

 

[Genez]

Hmmm. Interesting. In which verses do you find that stated?

In the immutable nature of God.
He does not change.

You may figure it out someday...
With tears running down your cheeks.

 

[Rufus]

Hmmm. Interesting. In which verses do you find that stated?

Shirely U. Jest with such a question.

 

[Genez]

Romans 9. God decreed the salvation of Issac and Jacob, while decreeing the reprobation of Ishmael, Esau and Pharaoh.

Decreed simply means that what God foreknew in his omniscience has been assigned (decreed) a time for it to become manifested.

 

[Rufus]

In the immutable nature of God.

You may figure it out someday...
With tears running down your cheeks.

Which also demands Justice which God loves! God never clears the guilty (Ex 34:7)!

 

[Genez]

Which also demands Justice which God loves! God never clears the guilty (Ex 34:7)!

How does that passage make your point?

 

[Rufus]

Decreed simply means that what God foreknew in his omniscience has been assigned (decreed) a time for it to become manifested.

Prove it from scripture. That's more wishful thinking on your part. And your heretical theory is unbiblical because God's will is not contingent on any of his moral creatures' (Eph 1:11; Rom 9:15-16).

 

[Rufus]

How does that passage make your point?

God saves those who meet the demands of his gospel. Anyone who doesn't is guilty of sin and will be judged as such. But you have a different gospel, do you? Where is it? Why are you keeping it hidden from us?

 

[Genez]

Prove it from scripture. That's more wishful thinking on your part. And your heretical theory is unbiblical because God's will is not contingent on any of his moral creatures' (Eph 1:11; Rom 9:15-16).

You have yet to prove anything yourself.
You seem to lack the capacity for things that have been said.
Yet, you keep demanding that things be said.

That comes under the heading of ...

Always learning, but can never arrive at an understanding of the truth.

 

[Genez]

God saves those who meet the demands of his gospel. Anyone who doesn't is guilty of sin and will be judged as such. But you have a different gospel, do you? Where is it? Why are you keeping it hidden from us?

Rufus 1:66.