Understanding God’s election

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Pilgrimshope

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You should tell yourself that and maybe stop thinking you need to lecture me because I'm the one that believes it's a real event and you are saying it's not a literal thing. There is certainly enough said about it for you to investigate the reality of it, and if you're not literally born again you will die the second death.

Nicodemus had no understanding... you can be like him if you wish, I suppose, though it would not be my preference, neither for you nor myself. We could say that the whole thrust of Scripture is telling us that we need to be born again and you're saying it's not literal... well I'm sorry I cannot agree with you on that. Just like I think that understanding the difference between the natural man and the one who has a circumcised heart is an importantant enough distinction to make and discuss.
I think we should leave tvis doscussion here sister , if I make my case to you I’m lecturing you . If you make your case I should listen or I’m against everything that’s right lol

I dont think any differently of you sister than I always have , in any way with the good lord as my witness. But I’m going to leave this one where it is.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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I think we should leave tvis doscussion here sister , if I make my case to you I’m lecturing you . If you make your case I should listen or I’m against everything that’s right lol

I dont think any differently of you sister than I always have , in any way with the good lord as my witness. But I’m going to leave this one where it is.
I knew it was pointless and said so quite some time ago... why we have persisted I do not know aside from I was hoping that you would understand what I was saying but it's obvious you don't. Thank you for your patience with me...
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Hmm ok I guess not really even making sense of this one you speak for everyone now ?
How many times have you and others misspoken for all believers in the Doctrines of Grace, clearly misrepresenting what we believe?
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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So that's why your understanding of the scripture is far more often off-the-rails than not. You obviously do not work very much to accurately handle the Word of Truth.
Yeah I was taught to pray about it , and then let it be true and learn from what it says and apply what I learn to life….seems pretty outlandish lol if we’re living in Superman’s bizarre world I mean
 

Rufus

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sister did you read where the guy asks Jesus “ how can a man return back to his mothers womb ? If it was “ literal “ we would have to revert back to the womb to be born again

Jesus goes on to say this

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

later he tells us this

It is the spirit that quickeneth;

the flesh profiteth nothing:

the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬


later peter (not me )but the apostle Peter , sums up “ born again “ in one of the only places other than the other example it’s even spoken on scripture the reason we talk about it

“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Of course it’s not literally that we go back to the womb and are reborn it’s about believing the gospel
So..."literal" in your universe is only what exists in temporal/physical reality and touches all our senses? Anything less than this is non-literal? Then tell me: How can you believe that God exists in a place called "heaven"? Have you seen heaven? Been there? If not, then to take your premise to its logical conclusion heaven, which is in a very different reality than the temporal one in which we reside, cannot literally be a place or a another dimension. So...where is God's throne? Where are his holy angels? Where is Jesus right now?
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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From what has been presented in this thread, which lines up with Calvinism, is that the good news is not the gospel, but it is learning you are one of the unconditionally elected and selectively and irresistibly drawn to the Father.
Agree. I cannot think of a more dangerous set of false premises than Calvinism so called.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Yeah I was taught to pray about it , and then let it be true and learn from what it says and apply what I learn to life….seems pretty outlandish lol if we’re living in Superman’s bizarre world I mean
Too bad they also didn't tell you to WORK at it! Prayer doesn't preclude diligent labor.
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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born again means something
I do understand you digging deeper into the concept as it ties to the rest of scripture which is very valuable, do you see being born again a singular event in time like natural birth?

This is the analogy Jesus is making to Nicodemus.

Some people think it a process, I think leading up to it can be a process but the actual event of belief and regeneration is a singular event.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Try and keep up man. The invaluable contents of this thread and the conclusions thereof are quite conclusive my friend.

The sum and total of the compendium is thus: the Calvinites were wrecked.
Hopelessly defeated at every skirmish. Then every battle. Then the war.
Outwitted, out-maneuvered and out-scholared. At every point.

It never really was much of a fight. They never stood a chance. It wasn't even close.
Full of YOURSELF much?
 

cv5

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Not one person on this thread would argue with this. We all need God's help. Faith come by hearing the word of God. His Spirit draws all men unto him. But not all men are saved because many reject him. See Romans 1.
Of course. This is some kind of straw man foisted up by the Calvinites.
All children are utterly dependent upon their Father.

But when we grow up, we are also ACCOUNTABLE to Him.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Not one person on this thread would argue with this. We all need God's help. Faith come by hearing the word of God. His Spirit draws all men unto him. But not all men are saved because many reject him. See Romans 1.
In actual fact they have. Obviously you did not see it so probably you should not be making comments about things you know nothing of.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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I do understand you digging deeper into the concept as it ties to the rest of scripture which is very valuable, do you see being born again a singular event in time like natural birth?

This is the analogy Jesus is making to Nicodemus.

Some people think it a process, I think leading up to it can be a process but the actual event of belief and regeneration is a singular event.
And rightfully so do "some people think it a process"? Why do you nilly willy pervert and twist the metaphor to suit your theological agenda? Isn't physical birth a process? And when does life begin during that process? If you believe that physical life begins prior to birth, then we are talking about two separate events in the process, aren't we? One event, most of us call "conception". And nine months later, we call it "birth".
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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I knew it was pointless and said so quite some time ago... why we have persisted I do not know aside from I was hoping that you would understand what I was saying but it's obvious you don't. Thank you for your patience with me...
I do understand I just disagreed with parts of what you said we’ve disagreed before also and seemed to be fine later so.

But I do understand what you wrote sister , parts of it I agree with it other parts i don’t. Whether someone attacked you in this thread I don’t know I only follow the conversation i am having but I have disagreed with you at points I do t feel like I have attacked or insulted you or anything like that at least I hope I haven’t.

and it’s never been the intent of me in a discussion with you stating what I believe as a lecturing of you lol that’s how I feel like two people discuss something you tell me what you think , then o read what you wrote and reply with what I think out the subject we’re discussing

My skin is thick like leather sometimes I expect others to have the same thickness of skin. If someone disagrees with me bout something .it doesn’t bother me or threaten my belief in God or anything.

But sometimes there’s just not agreement at a specific time is my view. To me it’s “ insane “ I’m a joking fashion I mean , to believe men can’t choose between good and evil , because that’s what the fruit caused them to be in that place of knowing both good and evil. Without getting back into it

at the same time it appears tbat to you it’s “ mental “ in a crazy insane joking way to think that men have a choice between good and evil because they are the fruit and came to know good and evil ……

we just don’t agree about a point or three but we do agree about this

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And this

“that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Do all things without murmurings and disputings:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:9-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If every time we Christian’s disagree about an idea we have we turn on each other and begin to call one another false or begin to bear grudges and make judgements ect ect ( not that you are doing this to me sister but it does happen here ) all we really could ever do is destroy each other

If we can discuss something peacefully and rest when we’re frustrated ect and even end it peacefully discussing other agreeable things we can then eventually reconcile and often both sides of a discussion has value to the other

that’s just my take of it. to you , who I consider a sister in the lord , whether we had anything to do with choosing the lord in return of what he’s done for us in Jesus alrwady through the gospel …. or not

if we agree on tbe important parts sister , I really honestly don’t care whether you believe we can choose or can’t choose what you believe about Jesus os what makes me believe that you are his
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,978
397
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John146 said:


Not one person on this thread would argue with this. We all need God's help. Faith come by hearing the word of God. His Spirit draws all men unto him. But not all men are saved because many reject him. See Romans 1.
Nonsense! God does not draw all men to himself in the distributive sense. See my post of 12/10 #2993 wherein I refute that falsehood.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,978
397
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I do understand I just disagreed with parts of what you said we’ve disagreed before also and seemed to be fine later so.

But I do understand what you wrote sister , parts of it I agree with it other parts i don’t. Whether someone attacked you in this thread I don’t know I only follow the conversation i am having but I have disagreed with you at points I do t feel like I have attacked or insulted you or anything like that at least I hope I haven’t.

and it’s never been the intent of me in a discussion with you stating what I believe as a lecturing of you lol that’s how I feel like two people discuss something you tell me what you think , then o read what you wrote and reply with what I think out the subject we’re discussing

My skin is thick like leather sometimes I expect others to have the same thickness of skin. If someone disagrees with me bout something .it doesn’t bother me or threaten my belief in God or anything.

But sometimes there’s just not agreement at a specific time is my view. To me it’s “ insane “ I’m a joking fashion I mean , to believe men can’t choose between good and evil , because that’s what the fruit caused them to be in that place of knowing both good and evil. Without getting back into it

at the same time it appears tbat to you it’s “ mental “ in a crazy insane joking way to think that men have a choice between good and evil because they are the fruit and came to know good and evil ……

we just don’t agree about a point or three but we do agree about this

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And this

“that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Do all things without murmurings and disputings:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:9-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If every time we Christian’s disagree about an idea we have we turn on each other and begin to call one another false or begin to bear grudges and make judgements ect ect ( not that you are doing this to me sister but it does happen here ) all we really could ever do is destroy each other

If we can discuss something peacefully and rest when we’re frustrated ect and even end it peacefully discussing other agreeable things we can then eventually reconcile and often both sides of a discussion has value to the other

that’s just my take of it. to you , who I consider a sister in the lord , whether we had anything to do with choosing the lord in return of what he’s done for us in Jesus alrwady through the gospel …. or not

if we agree on tbe important parts sister , I really honestly don’t care whether you believe we can choose or can’t choose what you believe about Jesus os what makes me believe that you are his
Bad trees cannot bear good fruit -- no matter how hard they try. Nor can sinners, who are accustomed to evil-doing, choose to do what is good (Jer 13:23). It's just not in the DNA of born sinners (Ps 51:5).
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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Bad trees cannot bear good fruit -- no matter how hard they try. Nor can sinners, who are accustomed to evil-doing, choose to do what is good (Jer 13:23). It's just not in the DNA of born sinners (Ps 51:5).
Amazing and not in a good way.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,096
30,223
113
I do understand I just disagreed with parts of what you said we’ve disagreed before also and seemed to be fine later so.

But I do understand what you wrote sister , parts of it I agree with it other parts i don’t. Whether someone attacked you in this thread I don’t know I only follow the conversation i am having but I have disagreed with you at points I do t feel like I have attacked or insulted you or anything like that at least I hope I haven’t.

and it’s never been the intent of me in a discussion with you stating what I believe as a lecturing of you lol that’s how I feel like two people discuss something you tell me what you think , then o read what you wrote and reply with what I think out the subject we’re discussing

My skin is thick like leather sometimes I expect others to have the same thickness of skin. If someone disagrees with me bout something .it doesn’t bother me or threaten my belief in God or anything.

But sometimes there’s just not agreement at a specific time is my view. To me it’s “ insane “ I’m a joking fashion I mean , to believe men can’t choose between good and evil , because that’s what the fruit caused them to be in that place of knowing both good and evil. Without getting back into it

at the same time it appears tbat to you it’s “ mental “ in a crazy insane joking way to think that men have a choice between good and evil because they are the fruit and came to know good and evil ……

we just don’t agree about a point or three but we do agree about this

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And this

“that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Do all things without murmurings and disputings:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:9-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If every time we Christian’s disagree about an idea we have we turn on each other and begin to call one another false or begin to bear grudges and make judgements ect ect ( not that you are doing this to me sister but it does happen here ) all we really could ever do is destroy each other

If we can discuss something peacefully and rest when we’re frustrated ect and even end it peacefully discussing other agreeable things we can then eventually reconcile and often both sides of a discussion has value to the other

that’s just my take of it. to you , who I consider a sister in the lord , whether we had anything to do with choosing the lord in return of what he’s done for us in Jesus alrwady through the gospel …. or not

if we agree on tbe important parts sister , I really honestly don’t care whether you believe we can choose or can’t choose what you believe about Jesus os what makes me believe that you are his
My skin is not that thick and whereas before when I said I thought it was pointless and almost cried this time I actually did so I appreciate your kind words to me after all of that. It's hard to believe you understand what I'm saying when you think I've been saying that people don't have a choice. I have said all along that they do. I supposed to find anyone that agrees in more than 1 or 2 points is a rare thing indeed, you know, but it is one place where Cameron and I certainly do agree and that is that people make choices out of their nature, which is why heart circumcision is so essential, with the difference between the natural man and the spiritual being a key element in who chooses what. I am at work again today but it is not as busy as it was yesterday and I'm just having my brunch now... I am so blessed in very many ways, it's hard sometimes to articulate, but I do appreciate you very much.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,096
30,223
113
Bad trees cannot bear good fruit -- no matter how hard they try. Nor can sinners, who are accustomed to evil-doing, choose to do what is good (Jer 13:23). It's just not in the DNA of born sinners (Ps 51:5).
No good thing dwells in the flesh but that gets denied along with a whole slew of other verses to the point where it boggles the mind!
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
6,329
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Nonsense! God does not draw all men to himself in the distributive sense. See my post of 12/10 #2993 wherein I refute that falsehood.

Maybe I will go with being totally appalled this time.