Understanding God’s election

[Pilgrimshope]

Well that is the important dividing line isn't it, the letters are written to people who have heard and responded to the Gospel through faith.

Paul does not teach that the power of the Gospel is insufficient to save for those who respond in faith.

No he surely doesn’t . he teaches tbat the gospel is the only thing that is sufficient and that can save sinners , even blasphemers like himself acting in ignorance not knowing beforhand but later being used as an example of Gods longsuffering and forbearance towards mankind because of the gospel and works of Christ to save us and willingly be the propitiation for our sins which , we hear about in the gospel.

everything the epistles discuss is about the gospel and things Jesus said or did on the gospel . Look at the power of it here peter had begun explaining the word sent after johns baptism then preached about Jesus and his ministry and judgement and his death and resurrection ect eventually he says

“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believers in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

….Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:43-44, 46-48‬ ‭

It’s literally the simplest equation Gods word has always been where he does his work he said it …and it was so . The gospel is his word of salvstion and life if we hear and accept it we will e savedbyits design and truth and power to actually bring us repentance and a change of mknd and heart

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Maybe I will go with being totally appalled this time.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I do understand you digging deeper into the concept as it ties to the rest of scripture which is very valuable, do you see being born again a singular event in time like natural birth?

This is the analogy Jesus is making to Nicodemus.

Some people think it a process, I think leading up to it can be a process but the actual event of belief and regeneration is a singular event.

I believe it’s a singular event like birth and then there’s a process after about growing up and maturing becoming fruitful. Like babies grow and learn and become decent people

 

[Inquisitor]

You believe a lot of weird stuff. And I've already proved you're wrong about what you think of what I believe so maybe you should just stop while you're ahead... not that you are.

Weird.

Cavin ignored the context.

 

[HeIsHere]

I believe it’s a singular event like birth and then there’s a process after about growing up and maturing becoming fruitful. Like babies grow and learn and become decent people

That is how understood your post.
Thank you and I would agree.

 

[Inquisitor]

Well that is the important dividing line isn't it, the letters are written to people who have heard and responded to the Gospel through faith.

Paul does not teach that the power of the Gospel is insufficient to save for those who respond in faith.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God is not in words, but in power.

 

[Magenta]

Weird.

Cavin ignored the context.

If you say so. Not that I am taking your word for it or anything.

 

[HeIsHere]

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God is not in words, but in power.

Yes this is about the kingdom of God, not the plan of salvation right?

 

[HeIsHere]

It’s literally the simplest equation Gods word has always been where he does his work he said it …and it was so . The gospel is his word of salvation and life if we hear and accept it we will be saved by its design and truth and power to actually bring us repentance and a change of mind and heart

What more it there to say except....

 

[Magenta]

No he surely doesn’t . he teaches tbat the gospel is the only thing that is sufficient and that can save sinners

Paul had an encounter with the risen living Lord and that is what turned him around. It is the same for others who may have rejected the gospel multiple multiples of times before God intervened in their lives... but this idea gets ridiculed, and we are told that God is unfair if He does not reveal Himself in exactly the same way to everybody as He does to anyone else, despite the fact that the Bible is full of such examples.

 

[Inquisitor]

How should I know what Calvin believed?

“The saints must press on; for, however eagerly they may in accordance with the Spirit strive toward God’s righteousness, the listless flesh always so burdens them that they do not proceed with due readiness. The Law is to the flesh like a whip to an idle and sluggish ass, to arouse it to work.” (Institutes 2.7.12)

Should the law be imposed on Christians and society in general?

According to Calvin that is a big yes.

As I said before Calvin did not understand the context.

Does this ignorance of context impact his understanding of the New Testament?

Absolutely, he will misunderstand the distinct difference between Jew and Gentile.

Therefore, Calvin will incorrectly interpret the letter to the Romans.

 

[Magenta]

“The saints must press on; for, however eagerly they may in accordance with the Spirit strive toward God’s righteousness, the listless flesh always so burdens them that they do not proceed with due readiness. The Law is to the flesh like a whip to an idle and sluggish ass, to arouse it to work.” (Institutes 2.7.12)

Should the law be imposed on Christians and society in general?

According to Calvin that is a big yes.

As I said before Calvin did not understand the context.

Does this ignorance of context impact his understanding of the New Testament?

Absolutely, he will misunderstand the distinct difference between Jew and Gentile.

Therefore, Calvin will incorrectly interpret the letter to the Romans.

I am not interested in Calvin... if you want to talk about him, talk to somebody else about him...

 

[daisyseesthesun]

Children are rebels from birth (Isa 48:8; Ps 58:3), as every inclination of their heart is evil from childhood (Gen 8:21). Children are born evil! Jesus made no exception for them in Mk 10:18! But at the same time, children instinctively know they must depend (trust in!) their parents for their welfare. This is why adults are called to be like "little children" so that they will trust Christ.

Rufus, you've completely missed the entire point: you have to be pure of heart like children. Children are not wicked. Only the wicked are sinners from birth. as some were made for the sword.

 

[Magenta]

The gospel is his word of salvation and life if we hear and accept it we will be saved by its design and truth and power to actually bring us repentance and a change of mknd and heart

His sheep hear. Hearing with comprehension does not happen for the natural man because the gospel is foolishness to him. Very much the same as how nobody can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit.

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes this is about the kingdom of God, not the plan of salvation right?

Correct HeIsHere.

The gospel was presented by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

For us that is ground zero and in that gospel, in that belief, rests the unlimited power of the
Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God is not in words, but in power.

We resist endless chatter, endless theology, the power of the Holy Spirit is what changes
people. God changes us and we can't change ourselves. Books don't change people.

We focus on Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit does the rest.

A very simple gospel that's has been deeply corrupted.

Let "God is love" completely dominate your life.

 

[Inquisitor]

His sheep hear. Hearing with comprehension does not happen for the natural man because the gospel is foolishness to him. Very much the same as how nobody can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit.

The power of the gospel overrides and penetrates all resistance.

It is the rejection of Jesus Christ that is the fatal sin.

There does come a time in everyone's life when they will ponder Jesus to some extent.

Even Atheists arrive at that point in their life. They may have firmly rejected Christianity
all their lives but they will hit the wall. Then think about Jesus as we all do.

 

[Rufus]

Some people, including Calvinists, have a problem with the biblical doctrine of predestination because they object to the fact that the predestination of God's elect also logically implies that God willfully bypasses all those he has predestined to be eternal objects of his wrath. But isn't this what happened when God redeemed Israel from their bondage to the Egyptians? Did God, when he "came down" to "rescue" Abraham's helpless descendants also plan to rescue the pagan, idolatrous Egyptians? Or did God give explicit instructions to the Egyptians on how to participate in the Passover ritual so that their firstborn would be spared along with the Hebrews'? (Yet, the Passover Lamb typifies atonement for the sins of the people to whom the ritual was given!) Since He didn't, then clearly the Exodus narrative is a graphic depiction of double predestination! God chose to save one people (nation) while leaving the other in their sins. In fact, this is what Paul teaches about Ishmael, Issac, Jacob, Esau and Pharaoh in Rom 9. But before I get ahead of myself, consider this true-to-life analogy.

I love apples! This is the good news. The bad is that I don't love all varieties of them. I only really like McIntosh (Macs for short). I'm planning a shopping trip to the stores, so I plan on "rescuing" some Macs from their supermarket prison. In so doing, I have also implicitly precluded any possibility of choosing another variety of apple to take home with me. All the other varieties I have "predestined" (determined beforehand) to exclude from my shopping list and checkout items. My determination to buy just one variety logically implies that I have also determined to exclude all the other varieties. So...that's "double predestination". I never determined to buy all varieties or just any variety. (Or to state this in positive terms: I determined to reject all the other varieties.) I determined to buy only one.

Likewise, God determined in eternity to make only one of Abraham's sons (Issac) the heir to the promises He made to Abraham. Ditto for Issac's two sons! God determined to make Jacob the heir of the promise he made and reiterated to Issac. Both Ismael and Esau were deliberately excluded from the Abrahamic Covenant -- and therefore excluded from the nation of Israel and her Promised Land.

 

[Inquisitor]

Some people, including Calvinists, have a problem with the biblical doctrine of predestination because they object to the fact that the predestination of God's elect also logically implies that God willfully bypasses all those he has predestined to be eternal objects of his wrath. But isn't this what happened when God redeemed Israel from their bondage to the Egyptians? Did God, when he "came down" to "rescue" Abraham's helpless descendants also plan to rescue the pagan, idolatrous Egyptians? Or did God give explicit instructions to the Egyptians on how to participate in the Passover ritual so that their firstborn would be spared along with the Hebrews'? (Yet, the Passover Lamb typifies atonement for the sins of the people to whom the ritual was given!) Since He didn't, then clearly the Exodus narrative is a graphic depiction of double predestination! God chose to save one people (nation) while leaving the other in their sins. In fact, this is what Paul teaches about Ishmael, Issac, Jacob, Esau and Pharaoh in Rom 9. But before I get ahead of myself, consider this true-to-life analogy.

I love apples! This is the good news. The bad is that I don't love all varieties of them. I only really like McIntosh (Macs for short). I'm planning a shopping trip to the stores, so I plan on "rescuing" some Macs from their supermarket prison. In so doing, I have also implicitly precluded any possibility of choosing another variety of apple to take home with me. All the other varieties I have "predestined" (determined beforehand) to exclude from my shopping list and checkout items. My determination to buy just one variety logically implies that I have also determined to exclude all the other varieties. So...that's "double predestination". I never determined to buy all varieties or just any variety. (Or to state this in positive terms: I determined to reject all the other varieties.) I determined to buy only one.

Likewise, God determined in eternity to make only one of Abraham's sons (Issac) the heir to the promises He made to Abraham. Ditto for Issac's two sons! God determined to make Jacob the heir of the promise he made and reiterated to Issac. Both Ismael and Esau were deliberately excluded from the Abrahamic Covenant -- and therefore excluded from the nation of Israel and her Promised Land.

That promised land was not the kingdom of heaven.

The promised land was a type, a shadow, the Abrahamic covenant was a type.

Abraham was not the only person saved from his generation, Abraham carried the promise.

The nation of Israel was never promised eternal life.

Just one name ever mattered.

And that name was not about double predestination.

 

[Jimbone]

Calvin states: “The reward of eternal salvation, as promised by the Lord, awaits the perfect obedience of the Law.” (Institutes 2.7.3)

Did Calvin believe that society should be under the law?

Who cares what Calvin said or did?

 

[cv5]

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

….Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

When? When in terms of a point in time relative to the objects of salvation?

Right then and there. Post facto their actual physical birth. Not before they were ever created.
And so it is with every believer, contrary to the claims of the Calvinites.