Understanding God’s election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#3,901
Jul 3, 2015
61,096
30,220
113
#3,901
GWH said:
Re Lk 22:31-32, Jesus prays that Simon's faith may not fail, but it did--three times.
Click to expand...
Jesus knew it would, and also said to Peter at that time, "And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
This is obviously an instruction to Peter for what to do after he "turned back" to faith after turning away.

GWH said:
In all of those Scriptures I see none saying that God forces some people to believe and others not to believe, but rather that God has elected to save everyone who perseveres in faith in Christ. I do see that some verses employ the verb "make" that can be interpreted as forcing, but may also be interpreted as providing a way that the believer must choose to cooperate with--thus not making (pun intended) God responsible for their sin and condemnation.
Click to expand...
What in the world? Why do people go on about anyone being forced? It is a complete misrepresentation.

John 6:37
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Is someone being forced here? Apparently you must think so.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#3,902
May 21, 2022
6,328
2,460
113
#3,902
Cameron143 said:
The illuminating power of the word of is the Spirit. We are born again by water and the Spirit. The Spirit is pretty easy. Water there is the word of God according to 1 Peter 1:23.
Jesus is the word and the Spirit is the spirit of Christ.
Click to expand...
So if the Gospel message is sufficient why do you say it is not sufficient? Make up your mind.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#3,903
Mar 1, 2022
20,039
6,860
113
62
#3,903
cv5 said:
In other words you agree with my assessment of your Calvinite dogma. Seeing as you have not challenged my post on any point.

Other than the quality of my math.
Click to expand...
Do you have a problem with God choosing the nation Israel out of all the nations of the earth and restricting salvation to them almost exclusively in the OT?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#3,905
Mar 1, 2022
20,039
6,860
113
62
#3,905
HeIsHere said:
So if the Gospel message is sufficient why do you say it is not sufficient? Make up your mind.
Click to expand...
The gospel is sufficient in that it is all the Spirit need employ to effect salvation.
I'll ask you too. Do you have a problem with God that He chose Israel out of all the nations of the earth to be His people and that salvation in the OT was almost exclusively from that nation?
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#3,906
Oct 12, 2017
3,350
520
113
#3,906
Cameron143 said:
Do you have a problem with God choosing the nation Israel out of all the nations of the earth and restricting salvation to them almost exclusively in the OT?
Click to expand...
Tell that to Jonah? God sent Jonah to be a missionary to Nineveh.
Many repented at hearing his preaching and turned to the God of Israel.

Many peoples around Israel were aware of the superior lifestyle that God raised up in Israel.
Those positive to the drawing of God ended up worshiping the God of the Jews, but without the requirements of the Law that the Jews were required.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#3,907
Jul 3, 2015
61,096
30,220
113
#3,907
Cameron143 said:
The gospel is sufficient in that it is all the Spirit need employ to effect salvation.
I'll ask you too. Do you have a problem with God that He chose Israel out of all the nations of the earth to be His people and that salvation in the OT was almost exclusively from that nation?
Click to expand...
They and those who agree with them obviously have a problem with God choosing anyone.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#3,909
May 21, 2022
6,328
2,460
113
#3,909
Cameron143 said:
I didn't say they can't understand the gospel. They know full well what the gospel is saying and the implications for themselves. They simply reject it because to them it is foolishness. If they could discern it spiritually, this would not be their response.
Click to expand...
That is not the thesis of Paul's letter but that aside, it does not matter in your view because only those who receive special gnosis are the ones who do not reject the Gospel.

It always comes down to special gnosis given to some and not others.

Those who actually follow the scriptural plan of salvation do not apply any special additional gnosis, the Gospel in and of itself is sufficient because of inherent power of the message itself.

People can believe it and with personal volition and persuasion respond positively and accept the gift of salvation without additional special gnosis, capisci?
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#3,911
May 21, 2022
6,328
2,460
113
#3,911
Cameron143 said:
The gospel is sufficient in that it is all the Spirit need employ to effect salvation.
I'll ask you too. Do you have a problem with God that He chose Israel out of all the nations of the earth to be His people and that salvation in the OT was almost exclusively from that nation?
Click to expand...
God needed a lineage that was the reason they were chosen for a particular purpose in His plan of salvation, that portion has been fulfilled and salvation was then and is now for all who chose to believe.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#3,912
Mar 1, 2022
20,039
6,860
113
62
#3,912
Genez said:
Tell that to Jonah? God sent Jonah to be a missionary to Nineveh.
Many repented at hearing his preaching and turned to the God of Israel.

Many peoples around Israel were aware of the superior lifestyle that God raised up in Israel.
Those positive to the drawing of God ended up worshiping the God of the Jews, but without the requirements of the Law that the Jews were required.
Click to expand...
Ninevah was the only other nation? You make my point. Salvation was almost exclusively of the Jews.
Now actually answer the question I asked: do you have a problem that God brought salvation almost exclusively to Israel?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#3,913
Mar 1, 2022
20,039
6,860
113
62
#3,913
HeIsHere said:
God needed a lineage that was the reason they were chosen for a particular purpose in His plan of salvation, that portion has been fulfilled and salvation was then and is now for all who chose to believe.
Click to expand...
Answer avoidance. God chose one people and not all the others. The reason is as you say. It fulfilled God's purpose to do so. Any problem with God acting this way?
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#3,914
May 21, 2022
6,328
2,460
113
#3,914
Genez said:
You do that all the time.

He did answer your question...

He just did not do it in a way you would want to hear it.
Click to expand...
That is the typical strategy employed not just here but in other places to., there seems to the same ole playbook.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#3,915
Jul 3, 2015
61,096
30,220
113
#3,915
HeIsHere said:
People can believe it and with personal volition and persuasion respond positively
and accept the gift of salvation without additional special gnosis, capisci?
Click to expand...
Ah, yes, the lover of darkness who is himself darkness, the slave to sin taken captive to the will of the devil,
hostile to God, suppressing the truth in unrighteous, incapable of obeying... you say that person of their own
free will chooses to believe and obey before God changes their heart of stone. Wow. Quite the playbook you have.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#3,916
Mar 1, 2022
20,039
6,860
113
62
#3,916
HeIsHere said:
That is not the thesis of Paul's letter but that aside, it does not matter in your view because only those who receive special gnosis are the ones who do not reject the Gospel.

It always comes down to special gnosis given to some and not others.

Those who actually follow the scriptural plan of salvation do not apply any special additional gnosis, the Gospel in and of itself is sufficient because of inherent power of the message itself.

People can believe it and with personal volition and persuasion respond positively and accept the gift of salvation without additional special gnosis, capisci?
Click to expand...
Jesus said that the church is built through the revelation of the Father of the person of the Lord Jesus Christ...Matthew 16. How then do you say revelation isn't necessary?
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#3,917
Oct 12, 2017
3,350
520
113
#3,917
Rufus said:
Thanks for the history lesson. But what does that have to do with with my 2 Jn10-11 cite (which, btw, wasn't written by Paul)?
Click to expand...

You're that callused?
You refuse to face it that Calvin had some serious issues that defied the Word of God.

Do you desire credibility?
Seems its something else you are after.

You have an inborn antagonism which God has not been able to tame towards doctrinally straight believers....
Your brand of Calvinism gives you the access you want to be antagonistic.

The Spirit is antagonistic to the flesh, and the flesh is antagonistic to the Spirit. Galatians 5:17

Your brand of Calvinism fits your emotional pattern just fine.


...............
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#3,918
Oct 12, 2017
3,350
520
113
#3,918
Magenta said:
Ah, yes, the lover of darkness who is himself darkness, captive to the will of the devil, hostile to God, suppressing the truth in unrighteous, incapable of obeying... you say that person of their own free will chooses to believe and obey before God changes their heart of stone.
Click to expand...
How does it feel to be captive?
Bet you could not even tell...
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#3,920
Jul 3, 2015
61,096
30,220
113
#3,920
Cameron143 said:
Jesus said that the church is built through the revelation of the Father of the person
of the Lord Jesus Christ...Matthew 16. How then do you say revelation isn't necessary?
Click to expand...
Quite astounding, really, that she so scornfully speaks against what God has decreed. In so many ways!

Perhaps we should break out the kleenex in case she will cry some more about how unfair God is.

1734233043358.png
 
You must log in or register to reply here.