Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

Ephesians 2:4-7 ~ Because of His great love for us, God, Who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

 

[Magenta]

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Kroogz]

If you want to simplify it that is your right. I was under the impression we are not to make a doctrine based on one verse.

I was brought to life as a dead person. Then, sometime later, my heart was circumcised. When I came to believe
with my new heart, I was sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit. There are more moving parts than just coming
to believe. Things that HAD TO precede that. People deny these things. They make the natural man with his stony
heart capable of doing that which Scripture PLAINLY says he is incapable of doing. Some say baptism saves you.
I was already saved before I got water baptized. Now you are talking about being beaten as if it proves something.

NASB 1995
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

The Doctrine of eternal security. We have eternal life. We will NEVER perish. No one( that includes me) will snatch us out of His Hand.


All in ONE verse.

 

[Magenta]

NASB 1995
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

The Doctrine of eternal security. We have eternal life. We will NEVER perish. No one( that includes me) will snatch us out of His Hand.

All in ONE verse.

Are you saying/implying no other verses support that one verse?

1 John 5:11-13 + John 6:47 ~ This is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[Magenta]

John 17:2-3~ You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent.

@Kroogz Do you think personal revelation is worthy of being mocked and scorned as HeIsHere does?

 

[Magenta]

Jeremiah 29:13-14a You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD.

 

[Kroogz]

Are you saying/implying no other verses support that one verse?

1 John 5:11-13 + John 6:47 ~ This is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

No. This is what I am saying.

Believe and THEN you shall be saved.

If that isn't the order, then we can beat a man before he does anything worthy of a beating.

Luke 12:48
But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.........

 

[Kroogz]

John 17:2-3~ You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent.

@Kroogz Do you think personal revelation is worthy of being mocked and scorned as HeIsHere does?

The order is believe and THEN you shall be saved. Acts 16:31.

 

[Magenta]

The order is believe and THEN you shall be saved. Acts 16:31.

Sure. Be water baptized and THEN you are saved.

 

[Cameron143]

Which comes first?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and You shall be saved...

The saving or the believing?


Luke 12:48
But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.........

Believe and THEN you shall be saved.

Simple.

If one believes, then they already possess the faith for what they believe. Faith in Christ is effected by the word and the Spirit. This means that faith comes by the working of God before belief.
Why is it so hard to believe we are saved by grace through faith? And that it is not of ourselves but the gift of God?

 

[Magenta]

If one believes, then they already possess the faith for what they believe. Faith in Christ is effected by the word and the Spirit. This means that faith comes by the working of God before belief.
Why is it so hard to believe we are saved by grace through faith? And that it is not of ourselves but the gift of God?

I agree. Faith moved the mountain of my unbelief. Therefore, faith preceded belief.

After decades of running from God it was somewhat of a relief.

But many here seem to have zero understanding of the natural man.

Whereas I lived that life for close to fifty years.

Pretending Scripture does not speak of him in the way the Bible does just does not cut it.

They can wish to attribute to him all the things said the spiritual man is capable of but it does not make them right.

Just ignorant. The natural man is INCAPABLE of obeying.

 

[Magenta]

But then what do some here say? Oh, they say the natural man means the spiritual man, the one alive by faith in Christ.

Yes, talk about making no sense. They should just believe what Scripture says instead of twisting it all out of shape.

 

[GWH]

Jesus knew it would, and also said to Peter at that time, "And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
This is obviously an instruction to Peter for what to do after he "turned back" to faith after turning away.


What in the world? Why do people go on about anyone being forced? It is a complete misrepresentation.

John 6:37
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Is someone being forced here? Apparently you must think so.

Yes, Peter exercised free will both in denying Jesus and in turning back to faith.

I agree that interpreting these verses as God forcing some people to be elect and preventing others from choosing to believe in Jesus is a misinterpretation, making one wonder where is the fruit of the HS in those who would think that way. I hope Rufus will agree with us.

However, I am glad he cited additional verses that can be misinterpreted as supporting Calvinism, and I intend to add those to the list on my website soon.

 

[Magenta]

I agree that interpreting these verses as God forcing some people to be elect and preventing others from choosing to believe in Jesus is a misinterpretation, making one wonder where is the fruit of the HS in those who would think that way.

Well, the misrepresentations from some never end on that point. God said He would circumcise people's hearts so that they may love Him, but they not only put the cart before the horse to say people can love God with their heart of stone and hostile-to-God mind while slaves to sin and captive to the will of the devil, but they outright deny that heart circumcision is even necessary. Let's not forget to add that they also claim God is unfair to decide whose heart gets circumcised and whose does not. It truly goes well beyond ridiculous what is said.

 

[cv5]

NASB 1995
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
The Doctrine of eternal security. We have eternal life. We will NEVER perish. No one( that includes me) will snatch us out of His Hand.
All in ONE verse.

This because we have entered into the New Covenant by an act of our own free will.
Consequently Jesus God is obliged to hold up His end of the bargain as an act of HIS own free will.

Come to think of it, why should God be trusted uphold His end of the bargain if no-one entered into the covenant
by their own discretion, consent and permission? Under such conditions He would NOT be obligated. Right?

I mean there would be no need of a bi-lateral covenant, if there were not two distinct wills.

And @Rufus @Magenta and @rogerg FAIL to remember that there are a multitude of WITNESSES to all of these goings-on.
The entire EPIC SPECTACLE of the salvation saga is being looked upon by angels and men.
Both fallen and unfallen.

For what purpose? To PROVE something about God. And to DISPROVE something about Satan.

The Calvinites dismiss all of this. Too busy despising the non-chosenites and exalting themselves.

 

[cv5]

Try another way. God chose Israel out of all the nations in the OT and largely only brought salvation to them. Do you have a problem with God almost exclusively saving Jews?

Wow. Another epic total FAIL there buddy.

God's objective in constituting and commissioning the Nation Israel was to SAVE/REDEEM THE GENTILE NATIONS.
SAVE. SALVATION. REDEEM. FIND LOST SHEEP.

The SECONDARY reason was for Israel to be a SIGN and WITNESS to God's workings and glory for the sake of all the world.
And for Israel to CODIFY and PUBLISH Gods Word for the sake of all the world.

And Gods testimony remains with the world to this present day so that EVERY MAN might know the True God and make the CHOICE to worship Him and serve Him.

And another thing, many Israelites had a BIG PROBLEM in fulfilling their contractual obligations and commission such as Jonah.
In fact it is clear that practically the whole nation dropped the ball. Consequently God TERMINATED their ***contract*** and commission.

And you thought the entire OT was about God CHOOSING the chosenites (including little old you) and despising and condemning all the rest of humanity did you? Yes you did. You just made that clear in you last few posts.

Sad.

 

[Magenta]

The natural man is of the flesh. The flesh profits nothing. The distinction is clearly made in Scripture between the natural man and the spiritual man. They are repeatedly sharply contrasted against each other right from the beginning in Genesis, but people act as if there is no difference between them. They ignore what is said of the natural man and ascribe to him what is said of the spiritual man.

With the heart one believes. The heart of the natural man is wicked above all things and cannot submit to God's law. Scripture actually says the natural man is incapable. This makes sense given that the natural man is hostile to God in his mind, a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, and is taken captive to the will of the devil. Scripture also makes plain that God enables people to believe, that He reveals things to us through the Spirit (which the natural man cannot receive), that He draws us with loving kindness, that He has promised to reveal Himself to those who earnestly seek Him. What we have found in this very thread are mockers and scoffers who deride the idea that personal revelation is involved in anyone's process. Hoping to add weight to their anti-Biblical beliefs, they call God keeping His promises "gnosis," as if that should be enough to make anybody else get on board with their denials of what is written in Scripture. They trot out verses that speak of those who believe and try to pass them off as verses that are referring to unbelievers. At every turn they squawk about Calvin and bitterly deride man's inability, as if Arminius did not teach the same thing, which is present in Molinism also... all of which just goes to show they do not know what they are talking about. But still they persist in promoting their false beliefs, and they do it all in the name of their false doctrine while ignoring the fact that it is Christ who sets men free, which they call being forced.

 

[cv5]

The natural man is of the flesh. The flesh profits nothing. The distinction is clearly made in Scripture between the natural man and the spiritual man. They are repeatedly sharply contrasted against each other right from the beginning in Genesis, but people act as if there is no difference between them. They ignore what is said of the natural man and ascribe to him what is said of the spiritual man.

With the heart one believes. The heart of the natural man is wicked above all things and cannot submit to God's law. Scripture actually says the natural man is incapable. This makes sense given that the natural man is hostile to God in his mind, a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, and is taken captive to the will of the devil. Scripture also makes plain that God enables people to believe, that He reveals things to us through the Spirit (which the natural man cannot receive), that He draws us with loving kindness, that He has promised to reveal Himself to those who earnestly seek Him. What we have found in this very thread are mockers and scoffers who deride the idea that personal revelation is involved in anyone's process. Hoping to add weight to their anti-Biblical beliefs, they call God keeping His promises "gnosis," as if that should be enough to make anybody else get on board with their denials of what is written in Scripture. They trot out verses that speak of those who believe and try to pass them off as verses that are referring to unbelievers. At every turn they squawk about Calvin and bitterly deride man's inability, as if Arminius did not teach the same thing, which is present in Molinism also... all of which just goes to show they do not know what they are talking about. But still they persist in promoting their false beliefs, and they do it all in the name of their false doctrine while ignoring the fact that it is Christ who sets men free.

Frankly, Calvinites have many opinions that don't square with the entire Bible, all of which are of the flesh, the carnal mind, and indicate lack of discernment and knowledge.

This folly is typical of many hyper-Calvinites. Tragic, yes, but oh so true.

 

[Kroogz]

This because we have entered into the New Covenant by an act of our own free will.
Consequently Jesus God is obliged to hold up His end of the bargain as an act of HIS own free will.

Come to think of it, why should God be trusted uphold His end of the bargain if no-one entered into the covenant
by their own discretion, consent and permission? Under such conditions He would NOT be obligated. Right?

I mean there would be no need of a bi-lateral covenant, if there were not two distinct wills.

And @Rufus @Magenta and @rogerg FAIL to remember that there are a multitude of WITNESSES to all of these goings-on.
The entire EPIC SPECTACLE of the salvation saga is being looked upon by angels and men.
Both fallen and unfallen.

For what purpose? To PROVE something about God. And to DISPROVE something about Satan.

The Calvinites dismiss all of this. Too busy despising the non-chosenites and exalting themselves.

It is amazing and sad to watch.

Christ dying for each and every person and each and every person has the glorious opportunity to be saved.....Is a false Gospel and doesn't glorify the Lord Jesus Christ in their world? Insanity and terrible!

Israel failed to bring the message to all of mankind, now the Church is going down the same path.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It is on us! And you are stating truth which is well above personal opinion, your knowledge of scripture has depth and understanding.

Well I am glad that we share some commone belief it’s a blessing . I think it makes sense according to scriptire but also other people have read scripture and came to other conclusions .

I think when a group of people come together pouring over scripture for the right intent and purpose some truth I’ll come foreward and in the end often each side had some points that were valid and ultimately the reconciliation of those ideas presented in scripture is actually possible and already there if we find it and see it with an open mind and heart after a prayer or three