Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
So you admit that God elected Israel to salvation while leaving out most people, and you have a problem with Him continuing such a practice.
And yes, lost sheep. Not lost goats. And the sheep are distinguished as those that hear His voice and follow Him. So only some, not all, can hear His voice and who do not follow because they are not His sheep. I wonder who would be His sheep. Any thoughts?
And yes, lost sheep. Not lost goats. And the sheep are distinguished as those that hear His voice and follow Him. So only some, not all, can hear His voice and who do not follow because they are not His sheep. I wonder who would be His sheep. Any thoughts?
“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
( Jesus atonement is sufficient for any and everyone )
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.”
1 John 2:1-5 KJV
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV
It is a rather somber prospect to witness but it’s why the gospel needs to be preached respectfully even in conflict
“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;
if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
2 Timothy 2:24-26 KJV
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
( Jesus atonement is sufficient for any and everyone )
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.”
1 John 2:1-5 KJV
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV
It is a rather somber prospect to witness but it’s why the gospel needs to be preached respectfully even in conflict
“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;
if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
2 Timothy 2:24-26 KJV
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Romans 8:7
The mind governed by the flesh cannot be said to pertain only to believers who may be said to be carnal, but must definitely and without a doubt at all times pertain to the person who is actually of the flesh: the natural man with an uncircumcised heart.
The mind governed by the flesh cannot be said to pertain only to believers who may be said to be carnal, but must definitely and without a doubt at all times pertain to the person who is actually of the flesh: the natural man with an uncircumcised heart.
It is perhaps quite difficult to come to a proper "conclusion" when one denies what Scripture actually says...
This does contribute to some coming to other conclusions.
And good morning! I am just about to go out for coffee...
This does contribute to some coming to other conclusions.
And good morning! I am just about to go out for coffee...
“…..the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:3-11 KJV
people reject and deny this anytime anyone shows it even if they show it repeatedly appearing again and again if Jesus said it
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 5:28-29 KJV
what I’m saying is people deny the scripture that doesn’t fit thier own argument and view it’s not just the other guy
Here is a thought. Unfathomable to the Calvinites? Perhaps. But not my problem.
[Jos 5:13 NIV]
Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?"
[Jos 5:14 NIV]
"Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?"
[Jos 5:15 NIV]
The commander of the LORD's army replied, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.
[Jos 5:13 NIV]
Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?"
[Jos 5:14 NIV]
"Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?"
[Jos 5:15 NIV]
The commander of the LORD's army replied, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.
Regarding circumcision, RM 4:1-25 teaches that Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness (v.3). Then this spiritual event was signified outwardly by circumcision (v.11). Similarly, all who believe in God are credited to be righteous and spiritual children of Abraham, although circumcision is optional (v.11-18).
RM 5:1-21 clarifies that faith in God by which we are justified or deemed righteous (v.1) is mediated by JC, who graces us with hope despite suffering and with love by the inpouring of the HS (v.2-5), so that we may reflect God's love.
Regarding fairness, RM 5:6-11 says that while we were powerless (unable to save ourselves via works per 3:9-20), Christ died for the ungodly or sinners or God's enemies, so that believers (3:22-26) are justified or reconciled and saved from God's wrath. This includes all of humanity potentially, comparable to how humanity became sinners following the original trespass (5:15-21).
RM 5:1-21 clarifies that faith in God by which we are justified or deemed righteous (v.1) is mediated by JC, who graces us with hope despite suffering and with love by the inpouring of the HS (v.2-5), so that we may reflect God's love.
Regarding fairness, RM 5:6-11 says that while we were powerless (unable to save ourselves via works per 3:9-20), Christ died for the ungodly or sinners or God's enemies, so that believers (3:22-26) are justified or reconciled and saved from God's wrath. This includes all of humanity potentially, comparable to how humanity became sinners following the original trespass (5:15-21).
God certainly foreknew what was in the heart of Pharaoh.
[Exo 3:19 NKJV]
"But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand.
[Exo 3:20 NKJV]
"So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in its midst; and after that he will let you go.
[Exo 3:19 NKJV]
"But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand.
[Exo 3:20 NKJV]
"So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in its midst; and after that he will let you go.
Are you saying spiritual circumcision is optional? Physical circumcision pointed to what Christ would do to the hearts of His people.
An eight day-old baby has no more say in his circumcision that any person does concerning the circumcision God performs on us.
Yes, let us now hear again how this is forcing people even though Scripture says it is so we MAY love God.
An eight day-old baby has no more say in his circumcision that any person does concerning the circumcision God performs on us.
Yes, let us now hear again how this is forcing people even though Scripture says it is so we MAY love God.
-
1
- Show all
Some people claim baptism in water saves us, when the Bible says it is the pledge of a good conscience toward God, with the water being symbolic of the cleansing that has already taken place, the washing of water which is/by the Word of God Who is Himself God, Jesus Christ. I think there is some confusion over when heart circumcision takes place, as many contend that the heart of the natural man, which is hostile to God and unable to obey, will of its own accord turn and choose to believe, which is really only what a circumcised heart is capable of doing, since the heart of the natural man, aside from all else that is said of it, such as slave to sin, suppressing truth, captive to the will of the devil etc, it is also incapable of submitting to God, and the gospel message is foolishness to him. Heart circumcision makes it possible for the person to choose rightly because Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death. Paul talks about this law and makes it pretty plain he did not have free will in Romans 7, oh wretched man that he was! Don't get me wrong for I love Paul dearly...
Romans 7:15-20
Romans 7:15-20
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Does scripture actually say that we all are going to be judged by our deeds and works ?
“But because of your stubbornness ( not you sister but the person who’s being stubborn ) and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
Romans 2:5-11 NIV
now sister we both understand that there’s more to it than just this set of verses but it does actually teach the church this judgement correct ? …..That’s not easy for everyone to acknowledge ( not speaking of you but other humans have a hard time with this being true )
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 NIV
Again the bible doesn’t just say this but this is actually part of what it says consistently and repetetively in the nt and the old correct ?
As we humans begin acknowledging things that are true but we don’t already think it’s true before we hear and see it in the word , this is the way to reconcile the things that seem to be opposed like tbat above seems to totally be at odds with this which the same apostle wrote like it’s two different doctrines but it’s not ….
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
Ephesians 2:8-10 NIV
If we then look more into grace we find that it’s there to save us by create repentence and the doing of good works for believers so when we’re judged our sins are remitted by the judge already and the things he’s created us to do by believing the gospel like treating other humans with respect and care especially if someone’s in need of some kind and we have the ability to help them that’s actually important to God in tbe nt and ot
and is one of the things we’ll face judgment for how did I treat and speak to others as a believer in Jesus ?
and so we tend as humans argue from those two points but they reconcile and make sense , and we dont even have to interpret or guess . the Bible explains it all if we read large sections of the epistles of Jesus witnesses like Paul and Peter and John and James Jude ect and if we look back to the light of the prophets beforehand speaking of Christ and the gospel it all makes sense actually it is revealed by faith
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17
So what do you hear in these parts ?
“For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
….For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. ( hearing the word of God the gospel )
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.”
Romans 1:9, 16-18, 21-25 KJV
Do you see how man became something he didn’t create then to be over time ? And how we’ve all done our own sins in our own lives and that’s what the lord has come to deal with which also is why we hear his call to repentance because we have sinned oireelves and we can repent and confess and be forgiven if we believe what he’s saying ……which is that we can be forgiven and made new inherit Gods kingdom and eternal life as his children
When we ( not you sister “we “ as in humans myself included )begin to acknolwedge the other points the Bible is making that’s there also this begins to form a bridge of understanding between the two points , that originally seems to be unconnected
Let’s talk about the process that reconciles some of those things instead of denying they are there either way
i say this because you hit on a good point if we don’t acknowledge by our own decision what’s there we’re just building a box around our own self in our mind .
it’s all true we both know that but it also reconciles by itself and forms a cohesive and peaceful message tbat brings folks together but if we need grace in this forum , grace to offer people in a discussion when they oppose us .
or there’s just never a chance for anyone to be pursuaded or ever hear what each other are saying and looking to how it reconciles to a greater or rather “ broader “ understanding of the message in the Bible that’s meant to save and reform us.
“But because of your stubbornness ( not you sister but the person who’s being stubborn ) and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
Romans 2:5-11 NIV
now sister we both understand that there’s more to it than just this set of verses but it does actually teach the church this judgement correct ? …..That’s not easy for everyone to acknowledge ( not speaking of you but other humans have a hard time with this being true )
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 NIV
Again the bible doesn’t just say this but this is actually part of what it says consistently and repetetively in the nt and the old correct ?
As we humans begin acknowledging things that are true but we don’t already think it’s true before we hear and see it in the word , this is the way to reconcile the things that seem to be opposed like tbat above seems to totally be at odds with this which the same apostle wrote like it’s two different doctrines but it’s not ….
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
Ephesians 2:8-10 NIV
If we then look more into grace we find that it’s there to save us by create repentence and the doing of good works for believers so when we’re judged our sins are remitted by the judge already and the things he’s created us to do by believing the gospel like treating other humans with respect and care especially if someone’s in need of some kind and we have the ability to help them that’s actually important to God in tbe nt and ot
and is one of the things we’ll face judgment for how did I treat and speak to others as a believer in Jesus ?
and so we tend as humans argue from those two points but they reconcile and make sense , and we dont even have to interpret or guess . the Bible explains it all if we read large sections of the epistles of Jesus witnesses like Paul and Peter and John and James Jude ect and if we look back to the light of the prophets beforehand speaking of Christ and the gospel it all makes sense actually it is revealed by faith
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17
So what do you hear in these parts ?
“For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
….For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. ( hearing the word of God the gospel )
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.”
Romans 1:9, 16-18, 21-25 KJV
Do you see how man became something he didn’t create then to be over time ? And how we’ve all done our own sins in our own lives and that’s what the lord has come to deal with which also is why we hear his call to repentance because we have sinned oireelves and we can repent and confess and be forgiven if we believe what he’s saying ……which is that we can be forgiven and made new inherit Gods kingdom and eternal life as his children
When we ( not you sister “we “ as in humans myself included )begin to acknolwedge the other points the Bible is making that’s there also this begins to form a bridge of understanding between the two points , that originally seems to be unconnected
Let’s talk about the process that reconciles some of those things instead of denying they are there either way
i say this because you hit on a good point if we don’t acknowledge by our own decision what’s there we’re just building a box around our own self in our mind .
it’s all true we both know that but it also reconciles by itself and forms a cohesive and peaceful message tbat brings folks together but if we need grace in this forum , grace to offer people in a discussion when they oppose us .
or there’s just never a chance for anyone to be pursuaded or ever hear what each other are saying and looking to how it reconciles to a greater or rather “ broader “ understanding of the message in the Bible that’s meant to save and reform us.