Understanding God’s election

[Inquisitor]

Salvation comes through faith. How can faith not be part of the gift. That's like Santa giving you a gift but rather than delivering it to you he leaves it in the North Pole. Faith is the delivery mechanism of the grace, just as Santa's sleigh is the delivery mechanism of your gift. No delivery, no gift.

Salvation is by grace through that instrument of faith.

Always by grace first.

Salvation is in the form of a gift given to those that believe.

A gift given to those that call on the name of Jesus, 'help me Jesus, save me Jesus'.

The Jews were once the elect but are not the elect now, context Cameron.

The Jews did not believe in Jesus and became non elect.

 

[Magenta]

God has allotted to each a measure of faith. From Romans 12. Oops. According to some, Paul lied.

I believe what Scripture says, despite the despicable lies of those who feel justified
making up blatant falsehoods and trying to pass them off as what I believe.

 

[Cameron143]

Salvation is by grace through that instrument of faith.

Always by grace first.

Salvation is in the form of a gift given to those that believe.

A gift given to those that call on the name of Jesus, 'help me Jesus, save me Jesus'.

The Jews were once the elect but are not the elect now, context Cameron.

The Jews did not believe in Jesus and became non elect.

I refer you to post #4065 for an understanding of election.

 

[cv5]

Re "I have never claimed that faith is meritorious. I'm not sure where you got that idea. It is the opposite of my belief."

Why else would you refuse to ascribe the ability to seek and have faith in God to sinners? If it is non-meritorious, what's the problem?

Re "I do not ignore that A&E are examples of sin and Abe an example of faith. It is quite shocking how easily you lie.

Sorry, I thought that if you viewed Abraham as an example of saving faith for all to be erroneous that you would probably think the same about A&E being an example of sin.

Re "I never said the gospel message was foolishness to Abe. I don't know why you feel you have to make up so much crap.":

I inferred it from you saying that the natural/uncircumcised man--which Abraham was--could not believe the Gospel unless God circumcised his heart first, but Paul says Abraham had faith first before circumcision, so how do you avoid implying that crap?

Re "Blaspheming God. I never said He hated humanity. My God, what a liar you are to be so dishonest about what I believe."

What I said was that by denying the teaching that God loves and wants to save all people you implicitly ascribe to Him hatred of however many humans you think He does not elect to circumcise--and you did not say that you believe God circumcises everyone's heart just now, so how do you avoid this implication?

My amended understanding is this:

1. You agree with Paul's teaching that faith is a non-meritorious acceptance of Christ's work. It is the way God enables people to be saved.

2. You agree with Paul's teaching that A&E exemplify sin but disagree that Abraham exemplifies faith

3. You disagree with Paul's teaching that Abraham was saved by faith first and THEN God deemed him to be righteous or spiritually circumcised,

4. You agree with Paul's teaching that the proto-gospel message was NOT foolishness to Abrahan, which is why he chose to believe it,

5. You seem oblivious to the implication that by ignoring Paul's teaching that God loves and wants to save all people, which means that He gives every sinner volition, thereby enabling him to seek salvation--or not, you ascribe hatred for the part of humanity whose hearts God does not circumcise so they may believe and be saved and effectually force them to go to hell.

BTW, it is wrong to say someone lies when they merely misunderstand you.

"but Paul says Abraham had faith first before circumcision, so how do you avoid implying that crap?"

And the Calvinite walls came tumbling down.

 

[Cameron143]

"but Paul says Abraham had faith first before circumcision, so how do you avoid implying that crap?"

And the Calvinite walls came tumbling down.

You have CDS so badly you can't even recognize who is on what side of the argument.

 

[Inquisitor]

So, tell me the manifestation of love when someone is cast into the Lake of Fire.
God must always act righteously, but He is under no obligation to always act lovingly.

Are you trying to tell me that Christ's brutal death on the cross, the sacrifice for us.

Was not love amplified in the extreme?

Christ died for all of us and way before anyone will be judged for their acceptance or rejection of His atonement.

You have the judgement before God's love is truly demonstrated to the world.

You have been commanded by Jesus Himself to understand everything in love.

Did God command you to elevate His sovereignty in your relationships?

Did God tell you to respect God's sovereignty?

What did Jesus command you to do Cameron?

There are only two words in the Christian vocabulary, faith and love.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another,
just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him.
We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

If your not obeying the commandment what have you been up to during your Christian life?

The word 'sovereign' only appears once in the N.T.

The word 'sovereignty' is not in the N.T.

 

[Magenta]

Now you know what election actually is, so perhaps you won't mischaracterize it in the future.

Eh? Does this mean you genuinely expect them to believe what the Bible actually says?

Wouldn't it be lovely if they did? And if they stopped lying about what we believe?

That's probably expecting too much.

 

[Intersection]

Are you trying to tell me that Christ's brutal death on the cross, the sacrifice for us.

Was not love amplified in the extreme?

Christ died for all of us and way before anyone will be judged for their acceptance or rejection of His atonement.

You have the judgement before God's love is truly demonstrated to the world.

You have been commanded by Jesus Himself to understand everything in love.

Did God command you to elevate His sovereignty in your relationships?

Did God tell you to respect God's sovereignty?

What did Jesus command you to do Cameron?

There are only two words in the Christian vocabulary, faith and love.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another,
just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him.
We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

If your not obeying the commandment what have you been up to during your Christian life?

The word 'sovereign' only appears once in the N.T.

The word 'sovereignty' is not in the N.T.

Do you believe the death of Jesus Christ accomplished anything good for those who are in Hell?

 

[Inquisitor]

The Elect of God Defined.

The elect of God are those who God foreknown would, as believers without willful unbelief, ultimately choose to cooperate with His grace within the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ and the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

The elect of God




God foreknown


Ephesians 1:4


Believers without willful unbelief




Ultimately choose to cooperate with His grace




Within the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ




Promptings of the Holy Spirit.

According to the letter of Romans God "foreknew" the nation of Israel (Romans 11:2).

You receive the Holy Spirit after you believe in Jesus and not before.

You were predestined to be holy and no one is predestined to be saved.

 

[cv5]

You have CDS so badly you can't even recognize who is on what side of the argument.

"3. You disagree with Paul's teaching that Abraham was saved by faith first and THEN God deemed him to be righteous or spiritually circumcised"

 

[Rufus]

In order for this gift to occur one must believe in it, God gives to those who trust in Him for it, it is pretty elementary.

That isn't what Jesus told Nicodemus. Jesus clearly told the Pharisee that the new birth is something that happens TO him. It's not something Nicodemus was expected to do for himself. After all, "it doesn't depend on the man who desires or the man who runs...but on the mercy of God" (Rom 9:16).

 

[Rufus]

According to the letter of Romans God "foreknew" the nation of Israel (Romans 11:2).

You receive the Holy Spirit after you believe in Jesus and not before.

You were predestined to be holy and no one is predestined to be saved.

Read Rom 8:30 some day. Also read Rom 9 while you're at it. God clearly predestined Issac and Jacob to enter into a personal, saving, covenant relationship with Him, but he didn't do that for Ishmael and Esau.

 

[Inquisitor]

Do you believe the death of Jesus Christ accomplished anything good for those who are in Hell?

God is love, fact.

Everything action by God in history is never, ever partial in any way towards any person.

Every single person that has ever lived is held responsible for their response to Jesus.

Jesus is the beginning and end of everything in life, in the creation, and in eternity.

One name, one truth, that name is above all names.

Anyone who rejects Jesus is rejecting life itself.

Anyone who rejects the manifestation of that divine love in Jesus cannot exist.

 

[Cameron143]

Are you trying to tell me that Christ's brutal death on the cross, the sacrifice for us.

Was not love amplified in the extreme?

Christ died for all of us and way before anyone will be judged for their acceptance or rejection of His atonement.

You have the judgement before God's love is truly demonstrated to the world.

You have been commanded by Jesus Himself to understand everything in love.

Did God command you to elevate His sovereignty in your relationships?

Did God tell you to respect God's sovereignty?

What did Jesus command you to do Cameron?

There are only two words in the Christian vocabulary, faith and love.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another,
just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him.
We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

If your not obeying the commandment what have you been up to during your Christian life?

The word 'sovereign' only appears once in the N.T.

The word 'sovereignty' is not in the N.T.

Did you even read my post? That is a perfectly good answer to a question I never asked, and an introduction of material that has no application to our former conversation.
Would you like to take a stab at the question I asked?

 

[Rufus]

According to the letter of Romans God "foreknew" the nation of Israel (Romans 11:2).

You receive the Holy Spirit after you believe in Jesus and not before.

You were predestined to be holy and no one is predestined to be saved.

The entire nation God "foreknew"? Or just people in the nation he "foreknew"? Hint: read down to v.5.

 

[Inquisitor]

Read Rom 8:30 some day. Also read Rom 9 while you're at it. God clearly predestined Issac and Jacob to enter into a personal, saving, covenant relationship with Him, but he didn't do that for Ishmael and Esau.

For some reason you think that God's selection of Isaac was for salvation.

I read it as God's selection for the delivery of the promise to mankind.

Pharoah's heart was hardened during the event of the exodus of Israel from Egypt.

The scripture is silent about the salvation of Pharoah or any other Egyptian.

Why do you extrapolate from what is written?

 

[Cameron143]

"3. You disagree with Paul's teaching that Abraham was saved by faith first and THEN God deemed him to be righteous or spiritually circumcised"

I don't disagree with anything in the Bible. I do disagree with your understanding of it.

 

[Magenta]

That isn't what Jesus told Nicodemus. Jesus clearly told the Pharisee that the new birth is something that happens TO him. It's not something Nicodemus was expected to do for himself. After all, "it doesn't depend on the man who desires or the man who runs...but on the mercy of God" (Rom 9:16).

Kind of like heart circumcision. No eight day old baby ever gave his consent to be circumcised. And that was the
law they were under, not believe first and THEN you will be circumcised. Despite the lies we are told repeatedly...

 

[Rufus]

"3. You disagree with Paul's teaching that Abraham was saved by faith first and THEN God deemed him to be righteous or spiritually circumcised"

But did Abraham produce that faith by himself or was it gifted to him by God?

 

[Rufus]

Kind of like heart circumcision. No eight day old baby ever gave his consent to be circumcised. And that was the
law they were under, not believe first and THEN you will be circumcised. Despite the lies we are told repeatedly...

Well...the Genez's of the world would tell us that when God gazed into his cosmic crystal ball he foresaw who would agree to submit themselves to the religious ritual.