Understanding God’s election

[rogerg]

But did Abraham produce that faith by himself or was it gifted to him by God?

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

 

[Rufus]

God has allotted to each a measure of faith. But some deny this, so I guess the answer you get will depend on whether you ask someone who believes what Scripture says, or someone who twists what Scripture says to support their false free will doctrine.

Hah! God has allotted to every man a measure of faith (Rom 12:3). But the earlier portion of v.3 qualifies who "every man" is! This is how the entire verse reads:

Rom 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among YOU, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
KJV

And the "you" in this verse can only be the original audience to whom Paul was writing (Rom 1:7, 13)...and again this is reinforced in 12:1 wherein he addresses his audience as "brethren". In short, the "every man" among "you" is limited to believers. Every child of God has been allotted a measure of faith.

 

[Rufus]

Salvation is by grace through that instrument of faith.

Always by grace first.

Salvation is in the form of a gift given to those that believe.

A gift given to those that call on the name of Jesus, 'help me Jesus, save me Jesus'.

The Jews were once the elect but are not the elect now, context Cameron.

The Jews did not believe in Jesus and became non elect.

Grace first...but NOT alone!

 

[Magenta]

Hah! God has allotted to every man a measure of faith (Rom 12:3). But the earlier portion of v.3 qualifies who "every man" is! This is how the entire verse reads: Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among YOU, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. KJV

And the "you" in this verse can only be the original audience to whom Paul was writing (Rom 1:7, 13)...and again this is reinforced in 12:1 wherein he addresses his audience as "brethren". In short, the "every man" among "you" is limited to believers. Every child of God has been allotted a measure of faith.

Yes, well, we would not say that the faithless have faith. Oh, well, some might. They say all
kinds of crazy contradictory untrue stuff they've just made up cuz they felt like it, anything
at all in their haste to slander and misrepresent, which they do with alarming frequency.

 

[Genez]

I didn't equate the two. YOU did! Evidently, 2Jn 10-11 inspired YOU to relate that story.

Here you go...

You would be stuck in a corner if you were not able to confuse and obfuscate and get the minds of others off the fact that you could not deal with the issue.

Calvinism is Beza-ism. It was created by a committee of followers of Calvin after John Calvin died.
Calvin never said what they forced into distorted dogma. "Irresistible Grace" is an oxymoron.
The Bezites were just reflecting the same kind of corrupt authoritarian mental attitude to counter what Catholicism had become.

 

[Genez]

The truth is hard for some to accept so they make up lies instead.

They've exchanged the truth about God for a lie...

LIke irresistible grace was made up...

Like limited atonement also.

 

[Rufus]

Here you go...

You would be stuck in a corner if you were not able to confuse and obfuscate and get the minds of others off the fact that you could not deal with the issue.

Calvinism is Beza-ism. It was created by a committee of followers of Calvin after John Calvin died.
Calvin never said what they forced into distorted dogma. "Irresistible Grace" is an oxymoron.
The Bezites were just reflecting the same kind of corrupt authoritarian mental attitude to counter what Catholicism had become.

And what does your posted nonsense have to do with 2Jn 10-11?

 

[cv5]

I don't disagree with anything in the Bible. I do disagree with your understanding of it.

LOL.
You have been caught. Again. Red handed.
You have been caught totally failing to truly understand the PHENOMENON of Abraham.

Likewise, you have ALREADY been caught totally failing to truly understand the PHENOMENON of:
-Adam and Eve and their trial
-the lies of Satan and by what ways and means he seduces/deceives angels and men
-Job and his trial
-the saga of Jacob-Esau
-the Exodus
-the Nation Israel
-the Old Covenant
-the New Covenant

How do I know that you do not know?
Because you Calvinites have painted a portrait of Jesus God. And it ain't pretty.
Actually its a horrible disfigurement.

What you DO possess are some vague notions of how Jesus saves some and condemns others before they were ever created.

Anyhoo......shriek from you dungeon all you want. There is NO WAY that I am going down to where you are.

 

[cv5]

The Bezites were just reflecting the same kind of corrupt authoritarian mental attitude to counter what Catholicism had become.

Yup. More Pharisaical gatekeepers.
Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

 

[Cameron143]

LOL.
You have been caught. Again. Red handed.
You have been caught totally failing to truly understand the PHENOMENON of Abraham.

Likewise, you have ALREADY been caught totally failing to truly understand the PHENOMENON of:
-Adam and Eve and their trial
-the lies of Satan and by what ways and means he seduces/deceives angels and men
-Job and his trial
-the saga of Jacob-Esau
-the Exodus
-the Nation Israel
-the Old Covenant
-the New Covenant

How do I know that you do not know?
Because you Calvinites have painted a portrait of Jesus God. And it ain't pretty.
Actually its a horrible disfigurement.

What you DO possess are some vague notions of how Jesus saves some and condemns others before they were ever created.

Anyhoo......shriek from you dungeon all you want. There is NO WAY that I am going down to where you are.

I'll refer you to post #4065 so you can understand election.

 

[cv5]

I'll refer you to post #4065 so you can understand election.

Baiting the dungeon with Calvinite cheese are we?
Sorry. Not interested.
Fake sorry.

 

[Cameron143]

Baiting the dungeon with Calvinite cheese are we?
Sorry. Not interested.
Fake sorry.

You don't understand election. That's why your doctrine is poor. Someone offers to help you out and you won't even take a look. Is that willful ignorance?

 

[Magenta]

You don't understand election. That's why your doctrine is poor. Someone offers
to help you out and you won't even take a look. Is that willful ignorance?

It is obvious that some here care nothing for what you really believe as long as they
can post reams of what you don't believe and attribute it to you as if it really was.
It is actually quite shocking how easily people who call themselves Christians lie.

 

[Inquisitor]

Grace first...but NOT alone!

Are you saying that the nation of Israel did not hear the gospel?

Israel was chosen by the sovereignty of God and not the Gentiles.

Were the ears of the nation of Israel blocked or did they hear it and refuse to comply?

Paul said Israel was grafted out because they pursued a self-righteousness gained from the law.

After Israel was severed from Christ and that was national judgement.

Then the grace of God was offered to the Gentile nations.

That is a summary of Romans.

The Gentiles heard the gospel and then put that gift of faith into action.

You hear the gospel and respond to the gospel.

No one can believe or have faith in Jesus without hearing the gospel first.

 

[Inquisitor]

Nope. You keep using words I don't use as though I do. Selection is not election. When you learn the difference, you will have a greater understanding of God and His ways.

And if you are not going to allow me types and figures from the OT, then don't allow them for yourself.

Election, not selection, is clearly taught concerning Israel. God made a completely new and distinctive people who were not a people. This Jesus does for those of the new creation. They come into the world but are not part of it, just as God called Israel to be separate. Entrance into this kingdom is limited like Israel, but entrance is not through physical birth, but by spiritual birth. This is the reason that Isaac, a child of promise, was given to Abraham and Sarah when a natural birth was no longer possible. It was promised by God, and only God had a hand in bringing it to pass. I'm sure you believe God forced Isaac to be born, and forced Abraham and Sarah to have and accept the child against their will. Yet the Bible seems to suggest otherwise. They seemed quite happy about it.
Conversely, Ishmael was a product of the natural sinful realm. He was born by natural processes out of a sinful act. God had no supernatural hand in it, and rejected Ishmael.
If God chose between the 2 because of something outside of Himself, that would be selection. That isn't what happened. What happened was God chose to create Isaac supernaturally and place him into the human race, and had God not done so, Isaac would never have existed. That's what election is. God isn't selecting between people who already exist, He is bringing a people into the world supernaturally placing them into His kingdom. Without election, there is no creation of those in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now you know what election actually is, so perhaps you won't mischaracterize it in the future.

The offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are saved?

The nation of Israel are the offspring of the twelve sons of Jacob.

Israel was severed from, grafted out of, Christ.

God chose certain Hebrews for the realization of the promise.

No one knows whether Egypt or Pharoah was saved or condemned.

As for Ishmael was he saved or not?

The scripture is silent on these people's salvation and it's not up to us to decide such things.

Your talking as if the only saved people in the O.T were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

 

[Genez]

And what does your posted nonsense have to do with 2Jn 10-11?

You never made a connection with reality when you posted that the first time.
Maybe a sympathetic relative will take you aside and show you what you keep missing.

 

[Blain]

you know I was wondering something today. For those who believe in election I have a question if some were predestined for salvation while other were not why bother trying to save souls? I mean sure you might bring some who were predestined to be saved but then others who were predestined not for salvation you are just wasting your time and effort on them right?

So say that election is truth why then do you bother to try to save souis assuming you do that of course I don't know how many actually try to bring others to Christ but we were commanded to do so by Jesus, except then comes the issue of salbation for the elect and then the non elect

 

[Genez]

You don't understand election. That's why your doctrine is poor. Someone offers to help you out and you won't even take a look. Is that willful ignorance?

Hey! You forgot to flush!!!!

 

[Inquisitor]

The Elect of God Defined.

The elect of God are those who God foreknown would, as believers without willful unbelief, ultimately choose to cooperate with His grace within the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ and the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

The elect of God




God foreknown


Ephesians 1:4


Believers without willful unbelief




Ultimately choose to cooperate with His grace




Within the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ




Promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Ephisians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

You were not sealed with the Holy Spirit until AFTER you believed in Jesus.

You did not have the Holy Spirit before you heard the gospel.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

In Christ you have been chosen to be holy, blameless, and loving of others.

Before anyone heard the gospel of Jesus Christ were they bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Genez]

you know I was wondering something today. For those who believe in election I have a question if some were predestined for salvation while other were not why bother trying to save souls? I mean sure you might bring some who were predestined to be saved but then others who were predestined not for salvation you are just wasting your time and effort on them right?

So say that election is truth why then do you bother to try to save souis assuming you do that of course I don't know how many actually try to bring others to Christ but we were commanded to do so by Jesus, except then comes the issue of salbation for the elect and then the non elect

They have God treating people like a little girl playing house with dolls.
She makes them speak. She makes them do as she wishes...
She is sovereign over them.......