Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

Apparently reflecting his methodology back to him makes me wrong in his eyes.

Too funny that he then repeats his methodology! It is only good/right when he does it, eh?

There is a lot of projection that occurs on this site.

 

[cv5]

We're coming to this. Just laying some groundwork so people can come to conclusions themselves.

My conclusions regarding Calvinite-ism led to me making a prison break.
Bye bye dungeon.

Why would I go back to darkness, despair and flail and wail with the incarcerated Calvinite doom-bots?

Sorry not interested. Fake sorry.

 

[GWH]

Let's begin with your premise concerning freewill. Can you define freewill?

I did in the first sentence: Moral free will (MFW) only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil.

 

[Cameron143]

I did in the first sentence: Moral free will (MFW) only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil.

That describes conditions in which you believe freewill exists. What is freewill?

 

[Magenta]

There is a lot of projection that occurs on this site.

I gave multiple posts that prove I do not ignore God's love for humanity just the other day, to someone who kept falsely accusing me: post after post they made to me lying about one thing or another, telling me gleefully how they speak out of both sides of their mouth, like that is supposed to be impressive? Then the next thing you know along comes another to blatantly lie and say I ascribe to God hatred of humanity. They just make up whatever they feel like, totally ignoring truth. It is truly Satanic how easily they do this.

 

[GWH]

There is a lot of projection that occurs on this site.

Indeed there is. The only way I see to prevent or refute the charge of projection or some other accusation is to provide quotes of what the other person said, which I try to do, although it is a bit of trouble to cut and paste.

 

[rogerg]

This is completely impossible to handle at all. You can't convince people like this. There does NOT AT ALL have to be this unbridgeable chasm between these two different ways of seeing the same thing that they insist there is, but there will never be an understanding when half the conversation completely ignores what you say and paints every one of your beliefs with lies. Bottom line.

Respectfully, Jimbone, IMHO, there is no way to bridge it. This is because even though both groups call themselves Christians, both nevertheless begin from two very different and utterly irreconcilable points - one of salvation solely by grace through Jesus Christ as Savior; the other from a strange, potion of works and grace, yet even the slightest trust in works negates grace entirely - they cannot both coexist, as both completely and eternally unreconcilable with each other. When it comes to works (and anything that a person must do for salvation qualifies as a work), even a little is a lot. In terms of the gospel, only one completely correct; the other completely incorrect. My belief is that salvation is only by God's grace through Jesus Christ as Savior with no contribution from man either possible or permitted.

 

[Cameron143]

I gave multiple posts that prove I do not ignore God's love for humanity just the other day, to someone who kept falsely accusing me: post after post they made to me lying about one thing or another, telling me gleefully how they speak out of both sides of their mouth, like that is supposed to be impressive? Then the next thing you know along comes another to blatantly lie and say I ascribe to God hatred of humanity. They just make up whatever they feel like, totally ignoring truth. It is truly Satanic how easily they do this.

You are preaching to the choir sis. I am a God-hating maligner of God who is preaching a false heretical gospel spewing hatred and keeping people out of the kingdom of God according to some.

 

[GWH]

That describes conditions in which you believe freewill exists. What is freewill?

Good grief, Cameron Brown! Are you pulling my leg?
Obviously MFW is choosing within the limits of those conditions! Do I need to quote DT 30:19 yet again?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

From Romans 6:19-21 You used to offer your body in slavery to impurity and to escalating wickedness when you were slaves to sin. What fruit did you reap at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The outcome of those things is death.

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,( because you had been yielding to serve it )

but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. ( we know what doctrine sets is free if we continue in it ) Being then made free from sin,

ye became the servants of righteousness.”( because we yield ourselves to it rather than sin through the gospel )
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a person first becomes a servant of not a slave to , but when we start yielding to temptations and serving sin with our deeds , this makes a person a servant of sin because they serve sin with thier lives and time . We offer ourselves to sin rather than God , then later after we realize what we’ve done and repent he saves us from that course of we turn to Jesus

 

[GWH]

Respectfully, Jimbone, IMHO, there is no way to bridge it. This is because even though both groups call themselves Christians, both nevertheless begin from two very different and utterly irreconcilable points - one of salvation solely by grace through Jesus Christ as Savior; the other from a strange, potion of works and grace, yet even the slightest trust in works negates grace entirely - they cannot both coexist, as both completely and eternally unreconcilable with each other. When it comes to works (and anything that a person must do for salvation qualifies as a work), even a little is a lot. In terms of the gospel, only one completely correct; the other completely incorrect. My belief is that salvation is only by God's grace through Jesus Christ as Savior with no contribution from man either possible or permitted.

Which belief means/implies that by NOT making possible grace through JC for some men, God might as well be Satan--unless you believe God's grace is universal. Do you?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I have never said God forbids anyone from believing. Are you trying to say I have?

Not at all not logically it’s my understanding that if only some are elect by God to believe and made able by zgod to believe them those left out are also by the same Will and incapable by the same will

So no you didn’t say that , but the entire idea comes to that conclusion . Yet if God has made all men capable of believing and sent the gospel to all people and some don’t accept it by thier own decision then it makes perfect sense that everyone is judged on thoer own deeds and Jesus died for all peoples sin not just a select few

honestly I’ve sort of lost a lot of the point of what we were talking about . You and I began discussing why Herman was o star ly made k capable because of what Adam did , or if it takes time for man to become that way and if we’re judged in our own actions or adams

 

[Cameron143]

Good grief, Cameron Brown! Are you pulling my leg?
Obviously MFW is choosing within the limits of those conditions! Do I need to quote DT 30:19 yet again?

I would prefer you just use your own words. I'll assume you are basing your answers on your understanding of scripture. I could define it for you, but I'm trying to make my argument employing your terms, and am asking for a definition from you so that any conclusions we arrive at come as a result of your premises.

 

[GWH]

I gave multiple posts that prove I do not ignore God's love for humanity just the other day, to someone who kept falsely accusing me: post after post they made to me lying about one thing or another, telling me gleefully how they speak out of both sides of their mouth, like that is supposed to be impressive? Then the next thing you know along comes another to blatantly lie and say I ascribe to God hatred of humanity. They just make up whatever they feel like, totally ignoring truth. It is truly Satanic how easily they do this.

I think you were alluding to me, but I say again that it is wrong to get so bent out of shape when someone misunderstands you, unless you have clarified what you meant and they ignore the update. This why I provided the following update of my understanding for your comment:

1. You agree with Paul's teaching that faith is a non-meritorious acceptance of Christ's work. It is the way God enables people to be saved.

2. You agree with Paul's teaching that A&E exemplify sin but disagree that Abraham exemplifies faith

3. You disagree with Paul's teaching that Abraham was saved by faith first and THEN God deemed him to be righteous or spiritually circumcised,

4. You agree with Paul's teaching that the proto-gospel message was NOT foolishness to Abrahan, which is why he chose to believe it,

5. You seem oblivious to the implication that by ignoring Paul's teaching that God loves and wants to save all people, which means that He gives every sinner volition, thereby enabling him to seek salvation--or not, you ascribe hatred for the part of humanity whose hearts God does not circumcise so they may believe and be saved and effectually force them to go to hell.

 

[rogerg]

Which belief means/implies that by NOT making possible grace through JC for some men, God might as well be Satan--unless you believe God's grace is universal. Do you?

No, I do not believe that God's grace unto salvation is universal. I believe, given that it was God who brought salvation
to fruition through Jesus Christ, it was His prerogative to dispense it to whomever He so chose to, for whatever reason He chose, to include having no reason for His choice at all, other than it was His choice, as no one deserves it.
Were it otherwise, then salvation would become dependent upon man's works, not God's, and mean we
are under law - the full and complete law of works - which law no man can satisfy.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Not at all not logically it’s my understanding that if only some are elect by God to believe and made able by zgod to believe them those left out are also by the same Will and incapable by the same will

So no you didn’t say that , but the entire idea comes to that conclusion . Yet if God has made all men capable of believing and sent the gospel to all people and some don’t accept it by thier own decision then it makes perfect sense that everyone is judged on thoer own deeds and Jesus died for all peoples sin not just a select few

honestly I’ve sort of lost a lot of the point of what we were talking about . You and I began discussing why Herman was o star ly made k capable because of what Adam did , or if it takes time for man to become that way and if we’re judged in our own actions or adams

O.s Herman has nothing to do with this but whether “all men are capable “

 

[keepingthingsreal]

What is freewill?

Come on, man! Everybody knows what free will is! It is a movie about some boy who risks everything to save a killer whale from being killed by aquarium owners!

What? That was Free Willy? Never mind.

Keep it civil, folks. Just plant or water rightly divided scriptures. God alone can give the increase. Just a friendly reminder.

 

[Cameron143]

Come on, man! Everybody knows what free will is! It is a movie about some boy who risks everything to save a killer whale from being killed by aquarium owners!

What? That was Free Willy? Never mind.

Keep it civil, folks. Just plant or water rightly divided scriptures. God alone can give the increase. Just a friendly reminder.

Nice. As simple as it may seem, people do not know what freewill is.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Nice. As simple as it may seem, people do not know what freewill is.

How would you describe it?

 

[Magenta]

later after we realize what we’ve done and repent he saves us from that course of we turn to Jesus

Do you mean after the Holy Spirit of God has worked in us? Or are you saying you come to this realization all on your own with no help from God at all? Some want us to believe they did not need the help. Is it that with your stony heart that needs replacing and hostile-to-God mind that is incapable of obeying you came to believe and obey? That while you were captive to the will of the devil your free will could free you? That you were free to choose before you were set free? That you were raised to new life while a sinner but you were a believer counted as righteous at the same time too? Do you realize that is a contradictory position to take? It is why I believe it is consistent with all else Scripture teaches, that our hearts are circumcised before we can come to believe and obey. Heart circumcision is just that, one of many moving parts. Paul called himself a prisoner of/captive to the law of sin at work within him, and knew he needed rescuing. Romans 7 makes pretty plain that he knew he was incapable of rescuing himself.

Not at all not logically it’s my understanding that if only some are elect by God to believe and made able by zgod to believe them those left out are also by the same Will and incapable by the same will

So no you didn’t say that , but the entire idea comes to that conclusion . Yet if God has made all men capable of believing and sent the gospel to all people and some don’t accept it by thier own decision then it makes perfect sense that everyone is judged on thoer own deeds and Jesus died for all peoples sin not just a select few

It is only a logical conclusion to come to if you believe and/or insist I am a Calvinist, which I am not, despite however many here falsely accuse me of such. I have said I am not. Do you know that die-hard Calvinists have insisted I am a free willer? Probably in all my time here I have not subscribed to the idea of free will. One, it is not Biblical. Two, man's will is constrained by too many factors to truly be considered free. But if I say man's will is not free as per Scripture, people jump all over me and accuse me of all manner of ridiculous things. The long and the short of it that I do not believe God makes it impossible for anyone to believe and then punishes them for not believing. Nope!