Understanding God’s election
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exactly the epistles are written to people who had already heard and accepted the gospel believing . And so what’s said in them is being said to those who already heard and believed now they are being encouraged as believers and taught
For instance
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”
Romans 6:3 KJV
That’s speaking to folks who already did this
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-
or this part
“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
Colossians 2:11-13 KJV
this part
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:27-29 KJV
these are written to people who had heard and believed the gospel and been baptized in his name and so what follows is applicable to them who hear and believe the gospel those who reject it wouldnt be in a church reading an epistle it’s o my because they heard and believed the gospel that these further things apply
For instance
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”
Romans 6:3 KJV
That’s speaking to folks who already did this
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-
or this part
“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
Colossians 2:11-13 KJV
this part
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:27-29 KJV
these are written to people who had heard and believed the gospel and been baptized in his name and so what follows is applicable to them who hear and believe the gospel those who reject it wouldnt be in a church reading an epistle it’s o my because they heard and believed the gospel that these further things apply
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You're getting ahead of the discussion.
First you say that Deuteronomy 30:19 is referring to salvation. Now you admit that it's not. So in basing your definition of freewill in salvation on verses that aren't speaking about salvation, then you already have bias in your definition.
I'm not to freewill regarding salvation yet. I'm trying to agree on a definition of freewill we can agree to. Can you give a generic definition of freewill so we can come to agreement of what it is.
I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I'm merely trying to have a point of concensus from which to base our positions.
First you say that Deuteronomy 30:19 is referring to salvation. Now you admit that it's not. So in basing your definition of freewill in salvation on verses that aren't speaking about salvation, then you already have bias in your definition.
I'm not to freewill regarding salvation yet. I'm trying to agree on a definition of freewill we can agree to. Can you give a generic definition of freewill so we can come to agreement of what it is.
I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I'm merely trying to have a point of concensus from which to base our positions.
It seems as if you are leaving out the factor of God's foreknowledge. I assume that you are referring to this:
Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
If this is what you are referring to, then, again, it seems as if you are leaving out the factor of God's foreknowledge. In other words, Christ has been God's chosen or elected means of salvation from before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20), and God, in his foreknowledge, knows who will ultimately be found to be IN HIM (Eph. 1:4). This does not mean that God "elected" who was going to ultimately be found IN HIM (in Christ), so it can be rightfully said that we (Christians) were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world. Do you see the difference between what you are suggesting and what I am saying?
Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
If this is what you are referring to, then, again, it seems as if you are leaving out the factor of God's foreknowledge. In other words, Christ has been God's chosen or elected means of salvation from before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20), and God, in his foreknowledge, knows who will ultimately be found to be IN HIM (Eph. 1:4). This does not mean that God "elected" who was going to ultimately be found IN HIM (in Christ), so it can be rightfully said that we (Christians) were chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world. Do you see the difference between what you are suggesting and what I am saying?
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Do word salads much? 
What does that even mean...that grace "guarantees freedom to believe"? So God gives the gift of faith to believers after they believe? Also, Jesus said all that the Father gives to him WILL COME to Him! He didn't say that God makes it merely possible for them to come -- but that they will [in fact] come!
What does that even mean...that grace "guarantees freedom to believe"? So God gives the gift of faith to believers after they believe? Also, Jesus said all that the Father gives to him WILL COME to Him! He didn't say that God makes it merely possible for them to come -- but that they will [in fact] come!
explicitly states that salvation is not by man's desire or effort but by the will and desire of God.
LOL, oh good to know, too funny!!
Well then I am glad you have a sharpened sword then!
Well then I am glad you have a sharpened sword then!
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The Calvinite crazy train is careening off the rails in slo-mo with every one of your senseless posts.
@Magenta @Cameron143 and @rogerg are aiding and abetting the disaster.
Truly, this smoking train wreck is a Calvinite disaster zone at this point.
And everyone remember to bring their hazmat suit....there are clouds of toxic fumes everywhere.
@Magenta @Cameron143 and @rogerg are aiding and abetting the disaster.
Truly, this smoking train wreck is a Calvinite disaster zone at this point.
And everyone remember to bring their hazmat suit....there are clouds of toxic fumes everywhere.
if you think about it God has always been telling man “ do what’s right and you’ll be accepted but if you don’t do what’s right sin will have you you must overcome it “
Who would want us to think we have no ability to hear and obey God ?
who would hear this
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
And then explain it’s impossible to do that ?
God doesn’t change , we have changed and need to repent . But every time God speaks life to mankind satan distorts it into death whether here
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:17 KJV
“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:”
Genesis 3:4 KJV
Or here
“ Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
John 18:37 KJV
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
2 Timothy 4:3-4 KJV
You can really see this happening in tbe world
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
2 Peter 2:1-2 KJV
Who would want us to think we have no ability to hear and obey God ?
who would hear this
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
And then explain it’s impossible to do that ?
God doesn’t change , we have changed and need to repent . But every time God speaks life to mankind satan distorts it into death whether here
“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 2:17 KJV
“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:”
Genesis 3:4 KJV
Or here
“ Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
John 18:37 KJV
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
2 Timothy 4:3-4 KJV
You can really see this happening in tbe world
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
2 Peter 2:1-2 KJV
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Eze 18:30
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Here, God was striving with the people to repent (his will). Had the people been willing to cast away all their transgressions (their freewill choice), THEN they would have received a new heart and a new spirit, or THEN the internal work would have been done. For those who deny freewill, don't miss God's question to those who willfully refused to repent.
Why WILL YE die, O house of Israel?
It was God's will that they should repent, get a new heart and a new spirit, and live, but their will was to die, which coincides perfectly with what Peter said here:
2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God was not willing that any should perish in Ezekiel's day or in Peter's day, and he is similarly not willing that any should perish in our day. Those who ultimately will perish will be those who willfully rejected God's gracious offer of salvation, or those who willfully chose not to believe in Christ that an internal work (being born again) might be done in them.
Does this answer your question?
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Here, God was striving with the people to repent (his will). Had the people been willing to cast away all their transgressions (their freewill choice), THEN they would have received a new heart and a new spirit, or THEN the internal work would have been done. For those who deny freewill, don't miss God's question to those who willfully refused to repent.
Why WILL YE die, O house of Israel?
It was God's will that they should repent, get a new heart and a new spirit, and live, but their will was to die, which coincides perfectly with what Peter said here:
2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God was not willing that any should perish in Ezekiel's day or in Peter's day, and he is similarly not willing that any should perish in our day. Those who ultimately will perish will be those who willfully rejected God's gracious offer of salvation, or those who willfully chose not to believe in Christ that an internal work (being born again) might be done in them.
Does this answer your question?
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