Understanding God’s election
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I am logging off to keep myself from getting lured back into this fruitless discussion. As a co-laborer with God, I have planted and watered. God is the one who will strive with people here in the hope of giving the increase, and what anybody does with such strivings is entirely their freewill choice. I am not going to beat a dead horse here any longer.
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"As I recently explained, Christians have currently received the Spirit of adoption, but their adoptions are not yet complete, nor will they be, until Christ's second coming when the awaited and hoped for adoption, or the redemption of their bodies, is complete."
There you guys have agreement regarding how to harmonize/synthesize the two meanings or uses of adoption?
(Stop discussing while you are ahead? :^)
There you guys have agreement regarding how to harmonize/synthesize the two meanings or uses of adoption?
(Stop discussing while you are ahead? :^)
Has God given "opportunity to be saved" to the fallen angels? Or do you leave that door open as well so that you can hug a false Santa Claus image of your god close to your bosom?
I "close the door" on Cain because of what scripture clearly teaches about him. Evidently, you are ignorant of these passages:
First, we have the spiritually positive statements about Abel in contrast to Cain in Heb in 11:4. Abel was righteous, whereas nothing is stated about Cain's righteousness in this text. But even more than that, we have these two passages:
1 John 3:11-12
11 This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain , who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous.
NIV
Wow! Verse 12 doesn't sound very promising. Clearly Cain was of the same ungodly seed as his daddy Adam -- i.e. he was the seed of the serpent!
And,
Jude 10-11
10 Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals — these are the very things that destroy them.
11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain ; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.
NIV
This passage offers even less hope! The false teachers and prophets of whom Jude speaks and who are destined for destruction are compared to Cain, among others. The "woe" that Jude pronounced on these wicked men make it kinda unlikely they made it to the pearly gates when they died.
I "close the door" on Cain because of what scripture clearly teaches about him. Evidently, you are ignorant of these passages:
First, we have the spiritually positive statements about Abel in contrast to Cain in Heb in 11:4. Abel was righteous, whereas nothing is stated about Cain's righteousness in this text. But even more than that, we have these two passages:
1 John 3:11-12
11 This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain , who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous.
NIV
Wow! Verse 12 doesn't sound very promising. Clearly Cain was of the same ungodly seed as his daddy Adam -- i.e. he was the seed of the serpent!
And,
Jude 10-11
10 Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals — these are the very things that destroy them.
11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain ; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.
NIV
This passage offers even less hope! The false teachers and prophets of whom Jude speaks and who are destined for destruction are compared to Cain, among others. The "woe" that Jude pronounced on these wicked men make it kinda unlikely they made it to the pearly gates when they died.
Two things: With your adoption, you aren't saying very much since every single aspect to salvation is presented in scripture as being in the present and future tenses! You seem to be representing adoption as being something that is entirely in every saint's future. But that's wrong! We are already the children of God. Our adoption has already been inaugurated at the time of our new birth and won't be consummated until the Parousia. The is the proverbial "now and not yet" eschatology. See also 1Jn 3:1; 5:19.
Secondly, the only one who is deceived and beguiled here is you! Why didn't you quote Rom 8:30 that also deals with predestination? (Rhetorical question. I already know why!)
Rom 8:30
30 And those he predestined [in eternity], he also called [in time and space]; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
NIV
Therefore, God's predestination extends through ALL the aspects of salvation -- in the Past (justification at the point of true faith), in the Present (sanctification) which is nuanced in several ways, and finally in the Future which will be the culmination of God's salvation.
You are trying to mislead us into believing that predestination has only to do with adoption; yet, that isn't what Paul taught. Predestination takes every saint through every aspect of salvation.
Secondly, the only one who is deceived and beguiled here is you! Why didn't you quote Rom 8:30 that also deals with predestination? (Rhetorical question. I already know why!)
Rom 8:30
30 And those he predestined [in eternity], he also called [in time and space]; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
NIV
Therefore, God's predestination extends through ALL the aspects of salvation -- in the Past (justification at the point of true faith), in the Present (sanctification) which is nuanced in several ways, and finally in the Future which will be the culmination of God's salvation.
You are trying to mislead us into believing that predestination has only to do with adoption; yet, that isn't what Paul taught. Predestination takes every saint through every aspect of salvation.
Lol. I just said that we are already the children of God in the post that you just quoted. Do you know how to read? Apparently not.
I've already addressed Romans 8:30 before, so I will not bother to repeat myself.
There is one thing that I have not done yet, but it is overdue. You are going on ignore. Bye.
I've already addressed Romans 8:30 before, so I will not bother to repeat myself.
There is one thing that I have not done yet, but it is overdue. You are going on ignore. Bye.
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Oh...you want their identity to make their difference -- as though their identity relies on them being a different kind of clay spoken about in Rom 9? But it doesn't. The identity of the elect is taken from the same lump of clay as those elected unto reprobation. There is no qualitative difference between the two groups. So...if you're going to scream " discrimination" at God, you should first determine the grounds for your complaint! It clearly cannot be racial, ethnic, moral or spiritual. Nor can it be arbitrary because God has a purpose for all that he does.
Nice time machine you have...
All the way back to a time before Noah's flood, I see.
That spoke of a time when fallen angels were intermingling with men and corrupting them in ways that were supercharged.
Try looking at the context once more, please.
Genesis 6
Keywords? "had become."
It says they became something.
Why?
Because, something was influencing them!...
Thank you, Lord!
All the way back to a time before Noah's flood, I see.
That spoke of a time when fallen angels were intermingling with men and corrupting them in ways that were supercharged.
Try looking at the context once more, please.
Genesis 6
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God
went in to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old,
men of renown.
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and
that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time
Keywords? "had become."
It says they became something.
Why?
Because, something was influencing them!...
Thank you, Lord!
A very good reply.
It is more difficult for a Jew to become a Christian than someone living in the Bible belt of the USA.
Almost impossible for someone to become a Christian in Afghanistan or Yemen, than someone
living in the USA.
In the USA you can hear the gospel every week in some states.
In many other countries the gospel is rarely preached and perhaps forbidden in some.
In the USA, roughly 60% or more of the population would identify themselves as Christian.
In Sudan, only 5% of the population would identify as Christian, 95% are Muslim.
Was this distribution of the Christian population in each country, a predestined event?
Are governments predestined or does the population determine who governs?
It is more difficult for a Jew to become a Christian than someone living in the Bible belt of the USA.
Almost impossible for someone to become a Christian in Afghanistan or Yemen, than someone
living in the USA.
In the USA you can hear the gospel every week in some states.
In many other countries the gospel is rarely preached and perhaps forbidden in some.
In the USA, roughly 60% or more of the population would identify themselves as Christian.
In Sudan, only 5% of the population would identify as Christian, 95% are Muslim.
Was this distribution of the Christian population in each country, a predestined event?
Are governments predestined or does the population determine who governs?
Restricted by what?
If the influence of your flesh over your soul could be detained?
Would you then be made free to make better decisions?
For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit
what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other,
so that you are not to do whatever you want. Galatians 5:17
If the influence of your flesh over your soul could be detained?
Would you then be made free to make better decisions?
The fallen angels fell from heaven = salvation, did they not?
HB 11:4 refers to GN 4:4-5, not to GN 4:6-7&15. Likewise 1JN 3:11-12 & JUDE 11.
Did YOU take the way of Cain bound for destruction before repenting?
How likely were YOU to make it to the pearly gates before becoming a Christian?
How likely was Paul or any of us sinners?
HB 11:4 refers to GN 4:4-5, not to GN 4:6-7&15. Likewise 1JN 3:11-12 & JUDE 11.
Did YOU take the way of Cain bound for destruction before repenting?
How likely were YOU to make it to the pearly gates before becoming a Christian?
How likely was Paul or any of us sinners?
Nice time machine you have...
All the way back to a time before Noah's flood, I see.
That spoke of a time when fallen angels were intermingling with men and corrupting them in ways that were supercharged.
Try looking at the context once more, please.
Genesis 6
Keywords? "had become."
It says they became something.
Why?
Because, something was influencing them!...
Thank you, Lord!
All the way back to a time before Noah's flood, I see.
That spoke of a time when fallen angels were intermingling with men and corrupting them in ways that were supercharged.
Try looking at the context once more, please.
Genesis 6
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God
went in to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old,
men of renown.
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and
that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time
Keywords? "had become."
It says they became something.
Why?
Because, something was influencing them!...
Thank you, Lord!