Understanding God’s election

[stilllearning]

Can you quote some verses from Samuel and elsewhere to attempt to solve a contradiction. The warrior
David kills Goliath but David is not king at that time. Only when David becomes King does David conquer
Jerusalem. So the warrior David cannot take the head of Goliath to Jerusalem. The Jebusites control Jerusalem
when David is a warrior. That's the contradiction.

I will let Chat GPT adjudicate.

Chat GPT said:

This is an interesting question regarding the chronology of David's life and actions as described in the Bible. The apparent contradiction arises from the account in 1 Samuel 17:54, where David, after killing Goliath, is said to bring
Goliath's head to Jerusalem:

"David took the head of the Philistine and brought it to Jerusalem, but he put his armor in his tent." (1 Samuel 17:54, ESV)​

However, as you note, at this point in the narrative, Jerusalem is still under Jebusite control and is not conquered by David until much later, during his reign as king, as described in 2 Samuel 5:6-9:

"The king and his men went to Jerusalem against the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land, who said to David, ‘You will not come in here, but the blind and the lame will ward you off’—thinking, ‘David cannot come in here.’ Nevertheless, David took the stronghold of Zion, that is, the city of David." (2 Samuel 5:6-7, ESV)​

Attempts to Reconcile the Contradiction

1. Anticipation of Jerusalem's Significance: Some scholars suggest that David bringing Goliath's head to Jerusalem is a symbolic action foreshadowing its future importance. Even though the city was under Jebusite control at the time, David may have chosen it as a destination because of its centrality and spiritual significance in Israelite tradition.
2. A Later Editorial Note: Another explanation is that 1 Samuel 17:54 could be a later editorial insertion reflecting knowledge of Jerusalem's eventual status under David. The event may have been "retrojected" into the earlier narrative for theological or literary purposes.
3. A Different Part of Jerusalem: Some commentators propose that David brought Goliath’s head to a location near Jerusalem, rather than the fortified Jebusite city itself. For example, some traditions associate the skull with the region of Golgotha, which later became significant in Christian tradition.
4. Historical Chronology vs. Theological Message: The biblical narratives often prioritize theological themes over strict chronological accuracy. The reference to Jerusalem could reflect its later significance in David's story rather than a precise historical event.
5. Jerusalem as a Broad Geographical Term: It is possible that "Jerusalem" in 1 Samuel 17:54 refers not to the fortified Jebusite stronghold but to a broader region or nearby area under Israelite influence.

Summary
While the text of 1 Samuel 17:54 seems to conflict with the historical control of Jerusalem by the Jebusites, various explanations, including symbolic foreshadowing, editorial perspectives, or geographical nuances, attempt to resolve the issue. The narrative focus remains on highlighting David's divine favor and his role in God's plan for Israel.

It is often speculated that David took 5 stones one for Goliath and the others for his brothers. When you go back and read about Og of Bashan, the Anakaim and the Rephaim and other places these giants are mentioned.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7497.htm

Anyway more or less there was at that time the valley of the Rephaim around Jebus. Could be that David took the head there because that is where the other giants were living. May be he took it there because his brothers were there can only speculate. Anyway I think he took it there because he was looking for a fight with Rephaim and that is where they were.

Anyway when you read of David taking Jebus we also get introuduced to his men of valor and then in latter chapters we read about the death of Goliath's brothers. So I would find that he took the head to Jebus because that is where other giants where and he was maybe looking for his brothers or looking for a further fight with giants and brought the head to provoke them.

Anyway just speculation but not sold it is a contradiction I believe he took it there as the bible reads just does not elaborate as to why so we have to speculate.

 

[Cameron143]

The tree was in the center of the garden when Adam had not yet sinned.

The covenant of grace has aways existed as grace is the direct expression of God's eternal love
for His creation. God's love and God's grace are eternal facets of God Himself.

Works were never included in that covenant of grace.

What kind of covenant was Jesus under?

 

[Inquisitor]

Where have all the wanna-be smartest people in this thread gone? I'm talking to you, free willers, who pride yourselves on your smarts, how learned you are theologically, and how spiritually advanced you are above everyone else. Why can't any free willer here answer the questions I posed on 12/15 in 4024 re Mat 7:23. I mean...God's PRESCIENCE, with respect to predestination, election and salvation, generally, is the cornerstone to your heresy, isn't it? Yet, no one wants to take a whack at reconciling the contradiction between Mat 7:23 and Rom 8:29.

You worldly wise brainiacs insist that Rom 8:29 is really saying that God foreknew all those who would come to faith in Him through Christ. God clearly foreknew their acts of faith and repentance, right? Yet, we have Jesus saying in Matthew that on judgment day he's going to tell a whole bunch of false professing believers that he never knew what they were going to do! But how could that be!? How could Jesus the very God of God not foreknow people's actions?

Brainiac speaking to Rufus.

Hello Rufus.

Could you have a read of text (Romans 7:23) again and include the context.

I will let Chat Gpt correct you.

Yes, the meaning of Matthew 7:23 becomes clearer and more nuanced when read within the broader context of Matthew 7:21–24. The verse, "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’", is often quoted alone, but understanding the surrounding verses provides critical context.

Contextual Overview

• Matthew 7:21-23 emphasizes the difference between outward religious activity and genuine obedience to God's will. Jesus highlights that not everyone who calls Him "Lord" or performs miracles in His name will enter the kingdom of heaven. Instead, only those who do the will of the Father are accepted. In verse 23, Jesus rejects those who practice lawlessness, despite their claims of spiritual authority and miraculous deeds.
• Matthew 7:24-27 follows with the parable of the wise and foolish builders, reinforcing the importance of not just hearing Jesus' words but acting on them. The wise builder, who builds his house on the rock, represents those who obey Jesus' teachings, while the foolish builder, who builds on sand, represents those who ignore them.

Meaning of Matthew 7:23 in Context
When viewed in the larger framework:

1. True Discipleship Requires Obedience: Jesus is contrasting superficial professions of faith with genuine submission to God's will. Verse 23 is His pronouncement of judgment on those who prioritize religious performance (prophecy, exorcism, miracles) over faithful living.
2. Lawlessness: The term "lawlessness" (Greek: anomia) suggests a disregard for God's commands. Despite their outwardly impressive deeds, these individuals' lives are marked by a lack of alignment with God's moral and ethical standards.
3. Knowing God: In verse 23, Jesus says, "I never knew you." This points to a relational disconnect, not just a lack of deeds. It underscores that salvation is about knowing and being known by God, which is evidenced by obedience.
4. The Call to Action: Verses 24-27 further stress that true discipleship is not just about acknowledgment of Jesus but living according to His teachings. Those who fail to act on His words are like the foolish builder who faces destruction.

Implications of the Broader Context
Without verses 21–24, Matthew 7:23 might be misunderstood as a blanket condemnation of anyone who struggles with sin or falls short. However, in context, it is a warning against self-deception—thinking that outward actions or verbal affirmations are enough without true obedience and a relationship with Christ.

The surrounding verses make it clear that Jesus is emphasizing a faith that transforms lives, aligning them with God's will, rather than empty religiosity or sensational displays of spirituality.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Why do you persist in ignoring the context?

 

[Cranberry]

How about a universal proclamation of the gospel to all mankind.

Then everyone has the opportunity to respond to that proclamation.

Rather than God showing His favoritism to some and ignoring the majority.

I only go by whT the Father said.

Man's ideology is not salvation.

 

[Inquisitor]

Where have all the wanna-be smartest people in this thread gone? I'm talking to you, free willers, who pride yourselves on your smarts, how learned you are theologically, and how spiritually advanced you are above everyone else. Why can't any free willer here answer the questions I posed on 12/15 in 4024 re Mat 7:23. I mean...God's PRESCIENCE, with respect to predestination, election and salvation, generally, is the cornerstone to your heresy, isn't it? Yet, no one wants to take a whack at reconciling the contradiction between Mat 7:23 and Rom 8:29.

You worldly wise brainiacs insist that Rom 8:29 is really saying that God foreknew all those who would come to faith in Him through Christ. God clearly foreknew their acts of faith and repentance, right? Yet, we have Jesus saying in Matthew that on judgment day he's going to tell a whole bunch of false professing believers that he never knew what they were going to do! But how could that be!? How could Jesus the very God of God not foreknow people's actions?

The text (Romans) from chapter two to the end of chapter eleven.

Paul is talking to the Jews in Rome about the law, boasting, sin, faith, etc.

Paul is not talking about the law to the Gentiles.

The phrase "the law" is mentioned 52 times in Romans.

Do you think the Gentiles have anything to do with the law, Rufus?

There is a veil in front of your eyes, Rufus, a traditional veil of interpretation,
that constantly ignores the context.

Here are some verses from Romans 2 and 3.

Romans 2:17
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God.

Romans 2:24
For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you”.

Romans 2:25
For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision.

Romans 2:28
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.

Romans 3:1-2
Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect.

Romans 3:9
What then? Are we better than they?

Romans 3:19
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law.

Romans 3:28-29
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Or is God the God of Jews only?

Romans 3:31
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

 

[Inquisitor]

I only go by whT the Father said.

Man's ideology is not salvation.

The Father has never spoken to you or mankind.

Read John's Gospel.

 

[Inquisitor]

What kind of covenant was Jesus under?

Are you serious?

 

[GWH]

Where have all the wanna-be smartest people in this thread gone? I'm talking to you, free willers, who pride yourselves on your smarts, how learned you are theologically, and how spiritually advanced you are above everyone else. Why can't any free willer here answer the questions I posed on 12/15 in 4024 re Mat 7:23. I mean...God's PRESCIENCE, with respect to predestination, election and salvation, generally, is the cornerstone to your heresy, isn't it? Yet, no one wants to take a whack at reconciling the contradiction between Mat 7:23 and Rom 8:29.

You worldly wise brainiacs insist that Rom 8:29 is really saying that God foreknew all those who would come to faith in Him through Christ. God clearly foreknew their acts of faith and repentance, right? Yet, we have Jesus saying in Matthew that on judgment day he's going to tell a whole bunch of false professing believers that he never knew what they were going to do! But how could that be!? How could Jesus the very God of God not foreknow people's actions?

Re Mat 7:23. "Since Jesus said in that passage that he never knew those false believers then how can Jesus be the very God of God since he doesn't possess the attribute of omniscience?"

Answer: God incarnate as the Son was not omniscient. He did not know when the world would end either per MT 24:36.

Re RN 8:29, "How could Jesus the very God of God not foreknow people's actions?"

Answer: God incarnate as the Son was not omniscient. He did not know when the world would end either per MT 24:36.

Re "God's PRESCIENCE, with respect to predestination, election and salvation, generally, is the cornerstone to your heresy, isn't it?"

Question: Are you talking to the Calvinists?

 

[Genez]

Self-supporting in terms of physical needs is also God's way. After all, there is and always has been a work mandate in place!

2 Thess 3:10-12
10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat ."

11 We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12 Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat .
NIV

Yet, the work you do, had been decreed to you by God's grace..

 

[Rufus]

Brainiac speaking to Rufus.

Hello Rufus.

Could you have a read of text (Romans 7:23) again and include the context.

I will let Chat Gpt correct you.

Yes, the meaning of Matthew 7:23 becomes clearer and more nuanced when read within the broader context of Matthew 7:21–24. The verse, "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’", is often quoted alone, but understanding the surrounding verses provides critical context.

Contextual Overview

• Matthew 7:21-23 emphasizes the difference between outward religious activity and genuine obedience to God's will. Jesus highlights that not everyone who calls Him "Lord" or performs miracles in His name will enter the kingdom of heaven. Instead, only those who do the will of the Father are accepted. In verse 23, Jesus rejects those who practice lawlessness, despite their claims of spiritual authority and miraculous deeds.
• Matthew 7:24-27 follows with the parable of the wise and foolish builders, reinforcing the importance of not just hearing Jesus' words but acting on them. The wise builder, who builds his house on the rock, represents those who obey Jesus' teachings, while the foolish builder, who builds on sand, represents those who ignore them.

Meaning of Matthew 7:23 in Context
When viewed in the larger framework:

1. True Discipleship Requires Obedience: Jesus is contrasting superficial professions of faith with genuine submission to God's will. Verse 23 is His pronouncement of judgment on those who prioritize religious performance (prophecy, exorcism, miracles) over faithful living.
2. Lawlessness: The term "lawlessness" (Greek: anomia) suggests a disregard for God's commands. Despite their outwardly impressive deeds, these individuals' lives are marked by a lack of alignment with God's moral and ethical standards.
3. Knowing God: In verse 23, Jesus says, "I never knew you." This points to a relational disconnect, not just a lack of deeds. It underscores that salvation is about knowing and being known by God, which is evidenced by obedience.
4. The Call to Action: Verses 24-27 further stress that true discipleship is not just about acknowledgment of Jesus but living according to His teachings. Those who fail to act on His words are like the foolish builder who faces destruction.

Implications of the Broader Context
Without verses 21–24, Matthew 7:23 might be misunderstood as a blanket condemnation of anyone who struggles with sin or falls short. However, in context, it is a warning against self-deception—thinking that outward actions or verbal affirmations are enough without true obedience and a relationship with Christ.

The surrounding verses make it clear that Jesus is emphasizing a faith that transforms lives, aligning them with God's will, rather than empty religiosity or sensational displays of spirituality.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Why do you persist in ignoring the context?

Why do you persist in ignoring Mat 7:23 wherein Jesus clearly taught that he wasn't omniscient? What part of "I never KNEW you" can't you understand? Reconcile the contradiction you free willers freely chose to create between this passage and Rom 8:29!

 

[Cameron143]

Are you serious?

Yep. Do you know?

 

[Rufus]

Yet, the work you do, had been decreed to you by God's grace..

Prove it. Are all the commands in the Law of Moses that no one is able to keep also by "God's grace"? The law says, "DO this and you shall live"!

 

[GWH]

Why do you persist in ignoring Mat 7:23 wherein Jesus clearly taught that he wasn't omniscient? What part of "I never KNEW you" can't you understand? Reconcile the contradiction you free willers freely chose to create between this passage and Rom 8:29!

Perhaps because he noted that I already answered your questions:

Re Mat 7:23. "Since Jesus said in that passage that he never knew those false believers then how can Jesus be the very God of God since he doesn't possess the attribute of omniscience?"

Answer: God incarnate as the Son was not omniscient. He did not know when the world would end either per MT 24:36.

Re RN 8:29, "How could Jesus the very God of God not foreknow people's actions?"

Answer: God incarnate as the Son was not omniscient. He did not know when the world would end either per MT 24:36.

Re "God's PRESCIENCE, with respect to predestination, election and salvation, generally, is the cornerstone to your heresy, isn't it?"

Question: Are you talking to the Calvinists?

 

[Rufus]

Perhaps because he noted that I already answered your questions:

Re Mat 7:23. "Since Jesus said in that passage that he never knew those false believers then how can Jesus be the very God of God since he doesn't possess the attribute of omniscience?"

Answer: God incarnate as the Son was not omniscient. He did not know when the world would end either per MT 24:36.

Re RN 8:29, "How could Jesus the very God of God not foreknow people's actions?"

Answer: God incarnate as the Son was not omniscient. He did not know when the world would end either per MT 24:36.

Re "God's PRESCIENCE, with respect to predestination, election and salvation, generally, is the cornerstone to your heresy, isn't it?"

Question: Are you talking to the Calvinists?

But the passage is dealing with the GLORIFIED, RISEN Christ when he returns to judge the world! What part of "WILL tell", don't you understand? Jesus is talking about a future event and what he WILL tell false believers on judgment day. And besides, if Jesus is truly God, then this means in his, PREEXISTING, PREINCARNATE state he should have known everything about everyone who ever lived, as he should in his glorified state. God "foreknowing" in Rom 8:29 is in eternity "past". Or maybe the Son of God didn't preexist in eternity?

 

[Cranberry]

The Father has never spoken to you or mankind.

Read John's Gospel.

Have a wonderful Christ-Mass.

 

[GWH]

But the passage is dealing with the GLORIFIED, RISEN Christ when he returns to judge the world! What part of "WILL tell", don't you understand? Jesus is talking about a future event and what he WILL tell false believers on judgment day. And besides, if Jesus is truly God, then this means in his, PREEXISTING, PREINCARNATE state he should have known everything about everyone who ever lived, as he should in his glorified state. God "foreknowing" in Rom 8:29 is in eternity "past". Or maybe the Son of God didn't preexist in eternity?

PHP 2:6-11 indicates that the preincarnate Christ had the nature of God the Father, which seems to refer to God's love in RM 1:20, but certainly Christ had access to God's/the Father's omnipotence and omniscience, and it is reasonable to assume the post-incarnate Christ regained these attributes when he was exalted to the highest place following His resurrection.

God is One, and the Son was revealed in JN 1:1-14 as the Word who was with God and was God from the beginning. Beyond that it is problematic to envision.

 

[Genez]

Prove it. Are all the commands in the Law of Moses that no one is able to keep also by "God's grace"? The law says, "DO this and you shall live"!

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18

..........

 

[Rufus]

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18

..........

But the work mandate preceded and transcends the Law of Moses, as it was a creation mandate that is still in force to this day. In fact, it will always be in force. For all eternity, the saints will be "co-workers" with Christ -- doing what exactly scripture doesn't say. But I don't think the saints will be spending eternity in perpetual retirement. God himself is a worker and the saints will continue to emulate him.

 

[Rufus]

PHP 2:6-11 indicates that the preincarnate Christ had the nature of God the Father, which seems to refer to God's love in RM 1:20, but certainly Christ had access to God's/the Father's omnipotence and omniscience, and it is reasonable to assume the post-incarnate Christ regained these attributes when he was exalted to the highest place following His resurrection.

God is One, and the Son was revealed in JN 1:1-14 as the Word who was with God and was God from the beginning. Beyond that it is problematic to envision.

Soo...with you having said all that, do you have the answer to my questions? Can you reconcile the contradiction between Mat 7:23 and Rom 8:29? How could the ETERNAL Son of God in both his pre-incarnate and subsequent glorified states not be omniscient? How could he know absolutely nothing about the false believers he will judge when he returns?

You referred to his glorified state as "post-incarnate" when there is no such thing! Jesus will always be fully God and fully man. Jesus didn't give up his humanity when he rose from the dead and ascended in to heaven.

 

[Genez]

But the work mandate preceded and transcends the Law of Moses, as it was a creation mandate that is still in force to this day. In fact, it will always be in force. For all eternity, the saints will be "co-workers" with Christ -- doing what exactly scripture doesn't say. But I don't think the saints will be spending eternity in perpetual retirement. God himself is a worker and the saints will continue to emulate him.

We all must work, like we must wipe ourselves after going to the bathroom.

That is a law of life we now find ourselves in.

If you want to call that "law" feel free to. But, what you referred to, we normally do not associate with the word 'law.'