Understanding God’s election

[Blain]

We all must work, like we must wipe ourselves after going to the bathroom.

That is a law of life we now find ourselves in.

If you want to call that "law" feel free to. But, what you referred to, we normally do not associate with the word 'law.'

 

[Kroogz]

And another thing......Golgotha.
The place of the skull. WHO'S SKULL?
Goliaths skull.

[1Sa 17:54 KJV]
And David took the head of the Philistine, and brought it to Jerusalem; but he put his armour in his tent.

Where did Jesus God CHOOSE to erect His cross?
Golgotha (***GOL OF GATH***)......where Goliaths skull is buried. Why did he do that?
(And BTW, all of Israel definitely knew that this was the place were David buried Goliaths skull).

Here is why:

[Gen 3:15 KJV]
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

We could not make a sci Fi movie today that would rival what was really going on in the days of Noah.

 

[Cranberry]

The Father has never spoken to you or mankind.

Read John's Gospel.

After much contemplation I decided I could not let the erroneous remarks of Inquisitor go without correction.


The Book of John 12

Jesus Came to Save the World


44 And Jesus cried out and said, z“Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but ain him who sent me. 45 And bwhoever csees me sees him who sent me. 46 dI have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone ehears my words and does not keep them, fI do not judge him; for gI did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 hThe one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; ithe word that I have spoken will judge him jon the last day. 49 For kI have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father lwho sent me has himself given me ma commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”

 

[GWH]

Soo...with you having said all that, do you have the answer to my questions? Can you reconcile the contradiction between Mat 7:23 and Rom 8:29? How could the ETERNAL Son of God in both his pre-incarnate and subsequent glorified states not be omniscient? How could he know absolutely nothing about the false believers he will judge when he returns?

You referred to his glorified state as "post-incarnate" when there is no such thing! Jesus will always be fully God and fully man. Jesus didn't give up his humanity when he rose from the dead and ascended in to heaven.

I see no contradiction by saying that Jesus was omniscient before and after His incarnation, but not during, harmonizing MT 7:23 & 24:36, RM 8:29 & PHP 2:6-11, although like everything else finite minds cannot comprehend "howness" perfectly/infallibly.

My understanding is that humanity is created in the image of God (GN 1:26, moral free will/conscience & God-consciousness) like A&E, and that our earthly bodies will be changed to immortal bodies when we are resurrected (1CR 15:35-54) while retaining the image of God , like Jesus.

 

[Genez]

Soo...with you having said all that, do you have the answer to my questions? Can you reconcile the contradiction between Mat 7:23 and Rom 8:29? How could the ETERNAL Son of God in both his pre-incarnate and subsequent glorified states not be omniscient? How could he know absolutely nothing about the false believers he will judge when he returns?

You referred to his glorified state as "post-incarnate" when there is no such thing! Jesus will always be fully God and fully man. Jesus didn't give up his humanity when he rose from the dead and ascended in to heaven.

You can remember many things you were taught from the Bible? No?
Does that make you omniscient when you are able to know what the future is to bring?

Knowing from memory of what you had been shown, should not be misconstrued for omniscience.

When you have omniscience? You will be knowing all things past, present, and future -SIMULTANEOUSLY!

Jesus left/denied himself of his position of being God (Deity) to function solely in his second nature of humanity (Soul).

He remembered many things He knew, but He could not tap into being Omniscient while he had to remain being as a man!

grace and peace ......

 

[Rufus]

PHP 2:6-11 indicates that the preincarnate Christ had the nature of God the Father, which seems to refer to God's love in RM 1:20, but certainly Christ had access to God's/the Father's omnipotence and omniscience, and it is reasonable to assume the post-incarnate Christ regained these attributes when he was exalted to the highest place following His resurrection.

God is One, and the Son was revealed in JN 1:1-14 as the Word who was with God and was God from the beginning. Beyond that it is problematic to envision.

Soo...with you having said all that, do you have the answer to my questions? Can you reconcile the contradiction between Mat 7:23 and Rom 8:29? How could the ETERNAL Son of God in both his pre-incarnate and subsequent glorified states not be omniscient? How could he know absolutely nothing about the false believers he will judge when he returns?

You referred to his glorified state as "post-incarnate" when there is no such thing! Jesus will always be fully God and fully man. Jesus didn't give up his humanity when he rose from the dead and ascended in to heaven.

 

[Rufus]

I see no contradiction by saying that Jesus was omniscient before and after His incarnation, but not during, harmonizing MT 7:23 & 24:36, RM 8:29 & PHP 2:6-11, although like everything else finite minds cannot comprehend "howness" perfectly/infallibly.

My understanding is that humanity is created in the image of God (GN 1:26, moral free will/conscience & God-consciousness) like A&E, and that our earthly bodies will be changed to immortal bodies when we are resurrected (1CR 15:35-54) while retaining the image of God , like Jesus.

Mat 7:23 has absolutely nothing to do with the kenosis of Christ during his first advent because the passage is referring to a future event -- long after his first advent. So...my question remains: How could Jesus be the very God of God when he returns in his glory (SECOND ADVENT) to judge the world and, yet, have zero knowledge of the false believers whom he will judge? How could he not have such knowledge since as the very God of God he is supposed to possess all the divine attributes and be as omniscient as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit?

 

[Rufus]

You can remember many things you were taught from the Bible? No?
Does that make you omniscient when you are able to know what the future is to bring?

Knowing from memory of what you had been shown, should not be misconstrued for omniscience.

When you have omniscience? You will be knowing all things past, present, and future -SIMULTANEOUSLY!

Jesus left/denied himself of his position of being God (Deity) to function solely in his second nature of humanity (Soul).

He remembered many things He knew, but He could not tap into being Omniscient while he had to remain being as a man!

grace and peace ......

Just as I would expect from you: Another totally non-sequitur post!

First of all what you said in the part I bolded is patently false! But I don't have time to go down your rabbit trail because I want to stay focused on Jesus' four words in Mat 7:23 that have to do with his Second Advent, i.e. I NEVER KNEW YOU, so here's a link that explains what the "kenosis" of Christ during his first advent truly means.

https://www.gotquestions.org/kenosis.html

And more proof of this is of course seen in all his miraculous powers (a/k/a Jesus' omnipotence which He very often tapped into). Moreover, Jesus always knew, during his first advent what was in men's hearts (Jn 2:24-25). Verse 24b clearly says, "for He KNEW all men"! (Also see Mat 9:4; Mk 2:8; Jn 5:42; 16:30; Act 1:24.) Well, since that was the case during his first advent, then it needs to be explained by you free willers how during his second advent, when he comes to judge the world, how he is unable to know anything about the false believers he is going to judge!? In fact, how can he judge anyone justly and fairly unless he knows everything about them!? What is Jesus going to do when he returns: Wing it? Pretend that he's divine and judge these people as if he knew anything at all about them? Yet, it also written about Christ's judgment:

Rev 2:23
23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds
NIV

So...how is Jesus going to fairly and justly judge those false believers in Mat 7:23 since he never ever had any true knowledge of them even in eternity!? Jesus' attribute of omniscience will clearly be M.I.A. on the last day, according to Jesus himself! Maybe the omniscience he had during his first advent never rose from the grave with Jesus?

 

[Genez]

Just as I would expect from you: Another totally non-sequitur post!

First of all what you said in the part I bolded is patently false! But I don't have time to go down your rabbit trail because I want to stay focused on Jesus' four words in Mat 7:23 that have to do with his Second Advent, i.e. I NEVER KNEW YOU, so here's a link that explains what the "kenosis" of Christ during his first advent truly means.

https://www.gotquestions.org/kenosis.html

And more proof of this is of course seen in all his miraculous powers (a/k/a Jesus' omnipotence which He very often tapped into). Moreover, Jesus always knew, during his first advent what was in men's hearts (Jn 2:24-25). Verse 24b clearly says, "for He KNEW all men"! (Also see Mat 9:4; Mk 2:8; Jn 5:42; 16:30; Act 1:24.) Well, since that was the case during his first advent, then it needs to be explained by you free willers how during his second advent, when he comes to judge the world, how he is unable to know anything about the false believers he is going to judge!? In fact, how can he judge anyone justly and fairly unless he knows everything about them!? What is Jesus going to do when he returns: Wing it? Pretend that he's divine and judge these people as if he knew anything at all about them? Yet, it also written about Christ's judgment:

Rev 2:23
23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds
NIV

So...how is Jesus going to fairly and justly judge those false believers in Mat 7:23 since he never ever had any true knowledge of them even in eternity!? Jesus' attribute of omniscience will clearly be M.I.A. on the last day, according to Jesus himself! Maybe the omniscience he had during his first advent never rose from the grave with Jesus?

Great job~!

Totally got away from the point that refuted you.

Soo...with you having said all that, do you have the answer to my questions? Can you reconcile the contradiction between Mat 7:23 and Rom 8:29? How could the ETERNAL Son of God in both his pre-incarnate and subsequent glorified states not be omniscient? How could he know absolutely nothing about the false believers he will judge when he returns?

How could the ETERNAL Son of God in both his pre-incarnate and subsequent glorified states not be omniscient?

That's what I was dealing with!

 

[Rufus]

We all must work, like we must wipe ourselves after going to the bathroom.

That is a law of life we now find ourselves in.

If you want to call that "law" feel free to. But, what you referred to, we normally do not associate with the word 'law.'

I called it what I called it: Creation Mandate! A mandate that long preceded the Law of Moses -- and is still in effect. In fact, the bible throughout teaches a strong work ethic!

 

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="Genez, post: 5424402, member: 262512"]Great job~!

Totally got away from the point that refuted you.

How could the ETERNAL Son of God in both his pre-incarnate and subsequent glorified states not be omniscient?

That's what I was dealing with![/QUOTE]

No problem. I knew you would never come up with a solution to this dilemma. Maybe your "genius" buddy CV5 can come to your rescue...

Only in your pipe dreams did you refute me with the word salad you concocted! So, what are you going to say about Jesus' Second Advent: He's going to return with amnesia!? How is that possible since even during his first advent he KNEW all men's hearts!? (And just for the record, the Gr. term "ginosko" in Mat 7:23 is the same term used in Jn 2:24-25.)

Bottom line: If Jesus has forever lost his omniscience, then he cannot be the very God of God. He would in fact TODAY and in the FUTURE be something LESS than divine! Also, if he lost his omniscience, there is no way possible for him to righteously judge men and give to each what they deserve according to their deeds. He would HAVE to know each and every person's every thought, word and deed in this life in order for him to render true justice.

 

[Rufus]

We all must work, like we must wipe ourselves after going to the bathroom.

That is a law of life we now find ourselves in.

If you want to call that "law" feel free to. But, what you referred to, we normally do not associate with the word 'law.'

Do you tip yourself afterwards for all that hard work?

 

[Inquisitor]

After much contemplation I decided I could not let the erroneous remarks of Inquisitor go without correction.


The Book of John 12

Jesus Came to Save the World


44 And Jesus cried out and said, z“Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but ain him who sent me. 45 And bwhoever csees me sees him who sent me. 46 dI have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone ehears my words and does not keep them, fI do not judge him; for gI did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 hThe one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; ithe word that I have spoken will judge him jon the last day. 49 For kI have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father lwho sent me has himself given me ma commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”

Which proves my point.

Only by looking at Jesus can you see the Father.

Only by hearing Jesus can you hear the Father.

Only by knowing Jesus can you know the Father.

Keep reading John's gospel.

 

[Inquisitor]

[QUOTE="Genez, post: 5424402, member: 262512"]Great job~!

Totally got away from the point that refuted you.

How could the ETERNAL Son of God in both his pre-incarnate and subsequent glorified states not be omniscient?

That's what I was dealing with!

No problem. I knew you would never come up with a solution to this dilemma. Maybe your "genius" buddy CV5 can come to your rescue...

Only in your pipe dreams did you refute me with the word salad you concocted! So, what are you going to say about Jesus' Second Advent: He's going to return with amnesia!? How is that possible since even during his first advent he KNEW all men's hearts!? (And just for the record, the Gr. term "ginosko" in Mat 7:23 is the same term used in Jn 2:24-25.)

Bottom line: If Jesus has forever lost his omniscience, then he cannot be the very God of God. He would in fact TODAY and in the FUTURE be something LESS than divine! Also, if he lost his omniscience, there is no way possible for him to righteously judge men and give to each what they deserve according to their deeds. He would HAVE to know each and every person's every thought, word and deed in this life in order for him to render true justice.[/QUOTE]

Jesus died on the cross and Jesus was mortal.

Jesus did not know all things.

Jesus did not have His former glory.

Jesus only existed in one place at any time.

If you deny that Jesus came in the flesh you will be purified with fire.

 

[Rufus]

You free-willers are a pretty pathetic, theologically-impoverished bunch with all your wordy, non-sequitur posts re the Mat 7:23 problem. But because I have compassion on you, in spite of your willful ignorance of the scriptures, permit me to give you a leg up to help you come up with a biblical solution to the serious problems presented by the above passage. There is another passage in scripture that uses the same Gr. term "eginoosken" (Strong's 1097) translated "know" or "knew" in the more literal translations, e.g. the KJV, Darby and YLT, and in a different kind of passage. The text I have in mind in Matthew reads:

Matt 1:25
25 and [Joseph] did not know her [Mary] till she brought forth her son — the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.
YLT

Soo...tell me, free willers, does Matthew mean that Joseph knew absolutely nothing about Mary until after Jesus was born? (That would really redefine blind dating/courtship, wouldn't it?)

 

[Rufus]

No problem. I knew you would never come up with a solution to this dilemma. Maybe your "genius" buddy CV5 can come to your rescue...

Only in your pipe dreams did you refute me with the word salad you concocted! So, what are you going to say about Jesus' Second Advent: He's going to return with amnesia!? How is that possible since even during his first advent he KNEW all men's hearts!? (And just for the record, the Gr. term "ginosko" in Mat 7:23 is the same term used in Jn 2:24-25.)

Bottom line: If Jesus has forever lost his omniscience, then he cannot be the very God of God. He would in fact TODAY and in the FUTURE be something LESS than divine! Also, if he lost his omniscience, there is no way possible for him to righteously judge men and give to each what they deserve according to their deeds. He would HAVE to know each and every person's every thought, word and deed in this life in order for him to render true justice.

Jesus died on the cross and Jesus was mortal.

Jesus did not know all things.

Jesus did not have His former glory.

Jesus only existed in one place at any time.

If you deny that Jesus came in the flesh you will be purified with fire. [/QUOTE]

So...all this fluff you just posted will apply with equal force for Jesus at his second advent, which is what Mat 7:23 is dealing with? What part of the future tense verb "will" don't you get? Or what part of "that day" (not be confused with the day of Jesus' first visitation) can't you understand?

And since you say that Jesus did not know ALL things, how do you explain Jn 2:24-25, and the other supporting verses I provided earlier in my 5048, to show that Jesus knew the hearts of all men during his FIRST ADVENT!? Again, I must ask: Did Jesus leave his omniscience and glory in the grave after he rose from the dead in his glorified state? Did he forget to take those with him?

 

[Cranberry]

Which proves my point.

Only by looking at Jesus can you see the Father.

Only by hearing Jesus can you hear the Father.

Only by knowing Jesus can you know the Father.

Keep reading John's gospel.

Your point is unbiblical in its entirety. Some would be correct in referring to your error as heresy.

Read the Bible. The entire Bible. Not just searched out passages you Google in order to post in forums. Then you will find how in error you are.

 

[Inquisitor]

Matthew 24:36
But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

I only need one imperfection, just one example of Jesus not knowing all things.

To establish that Jesus came in the flesh.

Jesus as a child grew in knowledge as Jesus did not know all things.

Jesus did indeed fully take on the human form.

The eternal glory that the pre-incarnate Jesus possessed was not on display.

Do you deny that Jesus came in the flesh?

 

[Rufus]

Matthew 24:36
But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

I only need one imperfection, just one example of Jesus not knowing all things.

To establish that Jesus came in the flesh.

Jesus as a child grew in knowledge as Jesus did not know all things.

Jesus did indeed fully take on the human form.

The eternal glory that the pre-incarnate Jesus possessed was not on display.

Do you deny that Jesus came in the flesh?

But Mat 7:23 isn't dealing with the date of the Parousia. It's dealing with the Judgment of men -- men and women who the Son of God in his preincarnate state NEVER knew even in eternity -- even though he supposedly decreed their very existence.

And there was nothing imperfect about Jesus. Regarding the date of his return, he willingly laid aside that knowledge during his first advent. But notice carefully a very different kind of post-resurrection response that the risen, glorified Christ gives in Acts to his apostles when they asked him about when the restoration of the Kingdom would take place. In that response, Jesus did not plead "ignorance" of times or dates:

Acts 1:6-7
6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
NIV

I know you free-willers just cannot bring yourselves to understand that Mat 7:23 isn't dealing with the First Advent. All your inane, foolish replies that are grounded in the first advent betray this fact. You want in vain to force the first advent into the passage even though it's clearly talking about Judgment Day which occurs at the second advent. After all, didn't Jesus say of his FIRST VISITATION that he did not come to judge the world but to save it (Jn 12:47)? So why are you free willers desperately trying to force a square peg (first advent) into a round hole (second advent event)? (Rhetorical question. I know why!)

So quit with your childish antics which are so transparently clear to the rest of us who do know the scriptures. Address my questions honestly about Mat 7:23 in their proper eschatological context! And that context is not the First Advent, which means the doctrine of the "kenosis" has absolutely nothing to do with the passage! It's merely a straw man you guys use because if you didn't bring that, you wouldn't have anything to say about Mat 7:23. What could you say: that the "kenosis" carried over to Jesus' present glorified state and will continue on for all eternity, and this is why he never knew anything about the false believers on judgment day?

 

[Inquisitor]

Jesus died on the cross and Jesus was mortal.

Jesus did not know all things.

Jesus did not have His former glory.

Jesus only existed in one place at any time.

If you deny that Jesus came in the flesh you will be purified with fire.

So...all this fluff you just posted will apply with equal force for Jesus at his second advent, which is what Mat 7:23 is dealing with? What part of the future tense verb "will" don't you get? Or what part of "that day" (not be confused with the day of Jesus' first visitation) can't you understand?

And since you say that Jesus did not know ALL things, how do you explain Jn 2:24-25, and the other supporting verses I provided earlier in my 5048, to show that Jesus knew the hearts of all men during his FIRST ADVENT!? Again, I must ask: Did Jesus leave his omniscience and glory in the grave after he rose from the dead in his glorified state? Did he forget to take those with him?[/QUOTE]

Jesus knew the hearts of all men because that was given to Him in the Holy Spirit.

John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

John 6:46
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

John 14:7
If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see
the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones,
or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (Jesus).

You were created through Jesus and for Jesus.

Has anyone ever seen the Father, heard the Father, known the Father, or even touched the Father.

1 Timothy 6:16
Who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.
To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father,
full of grace and truth.

Jesus was not eternal, immortal, because Jesus died on the cross.