Understanding God’s election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,482
546
113
There is no doubt that Christ desires all people to be saved.

Because that is what the text states.
God desires that all men be saved...
Sure... but the Calvinist bigots see otherwise.

They must keep it too simple for themselves, because they are doctrinally inept.
They keep pointing to one thing to keep dragging us back to, so they can divert away from exposing themselves for what they are.
Not only that, but they can not think with the Word of God beyond their small town mentality.

And, to keep it simple?
We are the "free willers."

What they call" free willers" are the blacks, and they are the KKK.

It's dealing with something on that level.

Could be worse though.
If this were centuries ago, they would want us burned on a stake.... like they used to do when TULIP was invented.

TULIP was spawned out of that level of thinking.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,114
441
83
You are a spiritual bigot.
You hate free will.
For it makes you accountable to have one....
But I love good answers to tough questions, which clearly you're not up to. You cannot explain the very obvious dichotomy that exists between FWT and prayer.

Furthermore, how can I hate something that is merely a figment of your imagination -- that doesn't exist?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,482
546
113
They want to bury this Word and put TULIP's over the grave!



"He himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours, but also for those of
the whole world." 1 John 2:2​


1 John 2:2 contradicts and confuses them.​
They reject it because they can not explain it.​
Therefore, they must reject us.​
And follow made up stuff to shield themselves with.​
.......
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,114
441
83
I included some pertinent verses which contradict the conclusion you draw from your verses that God hates those He does not choose to save--which is a blasphemous accusation that results from not arguing with the evil angel of false light. My argument aligns or harmonizes with all pertinent scripture as follows:

[Jhn 17:9 KJV] "I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

JN 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Harmonization: Whoever believes in Jesus becomes one of them for whom Jesus prayed. Jesus does not say that God desires to give Jesus only a few and condemn the majority to hell.


And just how does Jn 17:9 harmonize with Jn 3:16 when the former passage is exclusive in nature and the latter, according to FWT, is inclusive in nature? You appear to be totally unaware of what you just did above. You made an attempt to harmonize Jn 3:16 with 17:9 by excluding all those who would never believe in Christ. But this isn't what freewillers believe about this passage. They believe Jn 3:16 is ALL-INCLUSIVE, totally UNIVERSAL. But that isn't what's happening in 17:9. You need to understand Jn 17:9 in light of what Jesus taught in Mat 7:23.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,482
546
113
But I love good answers to tough questions, which clearly you're not up to. You cannot explain the very obvious dichotomy that exists between FWT and prayer.

Furthermore, how can I hate something that is merely a figment of your imagination -- that doesn't exist?
You know what to say, how to make yourself look good, but your words contradict you.

So!
You have no free will.
Or, do you?

If you do?
How did it happen?

If not?
You're only a propagandized machine.

Great theology you have there...
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,114
441
83
They want to bury this Word and put TULIP's over the grave!



"He himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours, but also for those of
the whole world." 1 John 2:2​


1 John 2:2 contradicts and confuses them.​
They reject it because they can not explain it.​
Therefore, they must reject us.​
And follow made up stuff to shield themselves with.​
.......
The above passage does not contradict the Doctrines of Grace. In fact, it harmonizes beautifully with the doctrines, since John himself made a contrast or distinction between "our" (Jewish) sins and "those of the whole world. Part "b" of the verse does begin with a "but" which you totally ignore!
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,114
441
83
You know what to say, how to make yourself look good, but your words contradict you.

So!
You have no free will.
Or, do you?

If you do?
How did it happen?


If not?
You're only a propagandized machine.

Great theology you have there...
"How did it happen", you ask? By God making good on his unilateral, unconditional New Covenant promises, which includes the giving of a new heart, the Holy Spirit, new birth, etc.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,482
546
113
The above passage does not contradict the Doctrines of Grace. In fact, it harmonizes beautifully with the doctrines, since John himself made a contrast or distinction between "our" (Jewish) sins and "those of the whole world. Part "b" of the verse does begin with a "but" which you totally ignore!
Go ahead.

Confuse the stupid people by giving the appearance of having something to say.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,482
546
113
"How did it happen", you ask? By God making good on his unilateral, unconditional New Covenant promises, which includes the giving of a new heart, the Holy Spirit, new birth, etc.
Waxing philosophical now, are we?
 
Oct 19, 2024
1,941
464
83
And just how does Jn 17:9 harmonize with Jn 3:16 when the former passage is exclusive in nature and the latter, according to FWT, is inclusive in nature? You appear to be totally unaware of what you just did above. You made an attempt to harmonize Jn 3:16 with 17:9 by excluding all those who would never believe in Christ. But this isn't what freewillers believe about this passage. They believe Jn 3:16 is ALL-INCLUSIVE, totally UNIVERSAL. But that isn't what's happening in 17:9. You need to understand Jn 17:9 in light of what Jesus taught in Mat 7:23.
No, I made the attempt to harmonize all of the Scriptures that were cited--and a very successful attempt it was, if I may say so! :^)

Not sure what you are carping about re FWT, but it doesn't matter since I am a BBTist. Did I overlook MT 7:23? Let's see...

"Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

Context? "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Harmonization/interpretation: Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a genuine believer, because their behavior does not manifest the fruit of the HS, and Jesus knew this all along. Thus, regarding them JN 3:18-20 is applicable.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,114
441
83
Okay...now that all you freewillers bombed out on addressing the very obvious dichotomy between FWT and prayer, since all who attempted an answer failed to address the rationale between prayer to an entity who will not and cannot make a difference in any person's refusal or acceptance of the gospel offer (rendering him totally ineffective since that entity cannot be the primary cause behind anyone's salvation), I will move on to new FWT ground that still consists of sinking and shifting sands.

Paul wrote to Titus:

Titus 3:4-6
4 But then God our Savior showed us his kindness and love.
5 He saved us, not because of the good things we did, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins and gave us a new life through the Holy Spirit. 6 He generously poured out the Spirit upon us because of what Jesus Christ our Savior did.
NLT

So...my questions re this passage are:

1. Since you freewillers insist that God's role in salvation is to "observe and react" to human decisions, then when He observes a person that has come to faith and repentance and He reacts favorably to that "free" will decision, would He not be rewarding that person for the "good things" he just did in time and space? If not, why would God reward such a person? Either Paul missed something highly important or you freewillers are! Just how can faith and repentance not be characterized as "good things" or "good deeds"? And if not "good things", what are they, and how could God react favorabily to acts that are NOT good?

2. Clearly Paul is telling Titus that God's kindness, grace, mercy, life, the Holy Spirit, etc. were given to him and to Titus due to "what Jesus Christ our Savior did"! But how can this possibly be since in FWT, faith and repentance must precede God's saving acts, for they form the basis to His acts? God cannot act until the person acts first! God cannot elect anyone to salvation until a person first elects Him, etc.!

In summary: Paul gives 100% credit to Christ for his own salvation and Titus'; yet you freewillers credit repentant sinners' "free will" choices as being the basis for their salvation, since the salvation buck stops with them and not with God or his Son!

I have more tough questions waiting in the wings...but now I'll sit back awhile and watch you freewillers froth at the mouth, flailing your arms wildly with your fists raised in the air. (But I suppose there's something to be said for accomplished multi-taskers.) :coffee:
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,114
441
83
No, I made the attempt to harmonize all of the Scriptures that were cited--and a very successful attempt it was, if I may say so! :^)

Not sure what you are carping about re FWT, but it doesn't matter since I am a BBTist. Did I overlook MT 7:23? Let's see...

"Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

Context? "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Harmonization/interpretation: Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a genuine believer, because their behavior does not manifest the fruit of the HS, and Jesus knew this all along. Thus, regarding them JN 3:18-20 is applicable.
Nope, you were not successful. I purposely stopped early on in your last post because I saw what you did! You made Jn 3:16 as exclusive in nature as Jn 17:9...when virtually all freewillers understand Jn 3:16 in the all-inclusive, universal, distributive sense. Therefore, you utterly failed to harmonize these two very different passages.

Re Mat 7:23, you have now also failed to explain what Jesus meant by "I never knew you". Does not this passage stand in sharp contrast with Rom 8:29; 11:2?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,670
5,913
113
No, I made the attempt to harmonize all of the Scriptures that were cited--and a very successful attempt it was, if I may say so! :^)

Not sure what you are carping about re FWT, but it doesn't matter since I am a BBTist. Did I overlook MT 7:23? Let's see...

"Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

Context? "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Harmonization/interpretation: Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a genuine believer, because their behavior does not manifest the fruit of the HS, and Jesus knew this all along. Thus, regarding them JN 3:18-20 is applicable.
“Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

right it’s not that they didn’t know or weren’t capable of hearing the gospel they were calling him lord too ….the thing that rejects them is they didn’t serve Gods Will instead they served satans Will

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I can say Jesus is lord a million times but if I serve Satan as if he’s my lord …..who’s actually my lord ? Whoever I spend my time serving and doing thier Will is my lord

I can serve sin and reap death or I can repent and obey the gospel and be set free from sin and become alive unto righteousness

“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin,

ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what doctrine could he possibly be talking about that sets people free of sins dominion ?

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,670
5,913
113
So, you have reduced the eternal New Covenant promises to worldly philosophy? It's no wonder at all that you hug dispensationalism so tightly to your bosom.
“Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:33‬ ‭

“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22-23, 25‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
Oct 19, 2024
1,941
464
83
Okay...now that all you freewillers bombed out on addressing the very obvious dichotomy between FWT and prayer, since all who attempted an answer failed to address the rationale between prayer to an entity who will not and cannot make a difference in any person's refusal or acceptance of the gospel offer (rendering him totally ineffective since that entity cannot be the primary cause behind anyone's salvation), I will move on to new FWT ground that still consists of sinking and shifting sands.

Paul wrote to Titus:

Titus 3:4-6
4 But then God our Savior showed us his kindness and love.
5 He saved us, not because of the good things we did, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins and gave us a new life through the Holy Spirit. 6 He generously poured out the Spirit upon us because of what Jesus Christ our Savior did.
NLT

So...my questions re this passage are:

1. Since you freewillers insist that God's role in salvation is to "observe and react" to human decisions, then when He observes a person that has come to faith and repentance and He reacts favorably to that "free" will decision, would He not be rewarding that person for the "good things" he just did in time and space? If not, why would God reward such a person? Either Paul missed something highly important or you freewillers are! Just how can faith and repentance not be characterized as "good things" or "good deeds"? And if not "good things", what are they, and how could God react favorabily to acts that are NOT good?

2. Clearly Paul is telling Titus that God's kindness, grace, mercy, life, the Holy Spirit, etc. were given to him and to Titus due to "what Jesus Christ our Savior did"! But how can this possibly be since in FWT, faith and repentance must precede God's saving acts, for they form the basis to His acts? God cannot act until the person acts first! God cannot elect anyone to salvation until a person first elects Him, etc.!

In summary: Paul gives 100% credit to Christ for his own salvation and Titus'; yet you freewillers credit repentant sinners' "free will" choices as being the basis for their salvation, since the salvation buck stops with them and not with God or his Son!

I have more tough questions waiting in the wings...but now I'll sit back awhile and watch you freewillers froth at the mouth, flailing your arms wildly with your fists raised in the air. (But I suppose there's something to be said for accomplished multi-taskers.) :coffee:
No, YOU "bombed" by thinking that God is your genie, and you showed how you cut off GW you dislike, especially that which indicates faith is non-meritorious, but I will look at your questions anyway.

"1. Since you freewillers insist that God's role in salvation is to "observe and react" to human decisions, then when He observes a person that has come to faith and repentance and He reacts favorably to that "free" will decision, would He not be rewarding that person for the "good things" he just did in time and space?"

Well, MT 5:12 & 16:27 says heaven is the reward for accepting His Grace in Christ, but I guess you think it is worse than hell?

"If not, why would God reward such a person? Either Paul missed something highly important or you freewillers are!"

Oh, you want citations of Paul saying reward, so how about EPH 6:8 & CL 3:24.

"Just how can faith and repentance not be characterized as "good things" or "good deeds"?"

Easy, just don't do that if you mean meritorious, since GW doesn't.

"And if not "good things", what are they?"

You should say, "if not meritorious, what are they?"

Answer... wait for it... drumroll please... NON-meritorious! (Too easy? :^)

"2. Clearly Paul is telling Titus that God's kindness, grace, mercy, life, the Holy Spirit, etc. were given to him and to Titus due to "what Jesus Christ our Savior did"! But how can this possibly be?"

Because what God/JC did was give them to P & T, who accepted them.

"In FWT, must faith and repentance precede God's saving acts?"

No, God initiates; souls cooperate--or not.

In summary: Paul and Titus were freewillers who gave 100% credit to Christ for proffering salvation, so the condemnation "buck" justly stops with those who reject the love of God or his Son!

Re "I have more tough questions waiting in the wings": they are only tough because you find it difficult to believe God is all-loving.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,939
659
113
I included some pertinent verses which contradict the conclusion you draw from your verses that God hates those He does not choose to save--which is a blasphemous accusation that results from not arguing with the evil angel of false light. My argument aligns or harmonizes
No, it doesn't. I think that what you call "harmonization" is actually you trying to force the verses to mean what you want them to.
I noticed also that you tend to read into verses assumptions not stated therein, which is different than harmonizing them.

Believe me, I hope I've missed something germane regarding the second death, and that I'm wrong, as I don't like it any more than you do, but as far as I can see, unfortunately, these verses seem pretty conclusive - that if someone doesn't become saved by God during their lifetime, they will be cast into the lake of fire. Read them closely

[Rev 20:6 KJV]
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[Rev 20:14-15 KJV]
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God hates the unsaved because they are not justified by Christ, and therefore, their sin remains. Until saved, all are guilty of sin worthy of death.

[Rom 9:11 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

[Rom 9:13-15 KJV]
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

JN 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
But the question is: who is it that will truly believe and why will they believe? Answer: true belief comes only as a gift from God; it is not by man.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[1Pe 1:20-21 KJV]
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Phl 1:29 KJV]
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

DT 30:19, “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.”
Old Covenant was based upon our works. Our choice was one of those required works. However, we are under the New Covenant
now. Our works, including our choices, are no longer required, nor permitted. Instead, God did it all on our behalf. In the following verses that describe the New Covenant, observe the "I will", the "will I". By that, we can know there is nothing left that man must do to effectuate the new covenant for ourselves. For those so chosen to be under the New Covenant, the Old Covenant and its stipulations are neither in effect nor applicable.

[Heb 8:9-12 KJV]
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, ands write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

MT 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”
It is speaking not about individuals but about the Jewish religious infrastructure. God is telling the Jews that salvation would no
longer be through their religion - that their religious house would be left barren regarding salvation. Notice individuals are not in view, but Jerusalem is, the old holy city, and seat of the Jewish religion.

1TM 2:3b-4, “God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
You missed significant verses that you should have used to harmonize it. Those verses define who the "all" actually are.

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
[Jhn 17:9 KJV] 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

RM 11:7, “What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did”,
Doesn't that verse (and the one prior to it), actually support my position, not yours?

[Rom 11:6-7 KJV]
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

EPH 1:3-14, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
Okay, at this point, I'm not even following you. These verses support election and the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant. They speak only of the elect being justified by God apart from anything they may do - whether good or bad. Not everyone has been chosen to be holy and without blame from before the foundation of the world. Those elected, God chose, they did not choose Him, nor themselves.

[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Actually, I think I'm getting close to the maximum allowable for a post, so I will stop now and probably address
the remainder sometime in the future. Suffice it to say though, that pertaining to salvation, God does it all. If He didn't, then no one would/could become saved. Salvation is bestowed on those not deserving of it who were none the less chosen by an exceedingly merciful and gracious God through Jesus Christ.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,114
441
83
God desires that all men be saved...
Sure... but the Calvinist bigots see otherwise.

They must keep it too simple for themselves, because they are doctrinally inept.
They keep pointing to one thing to keep dragging us back to, so they can divert away from exposing themselves for what they are.
Not only that, but they can not think with the Word of God beyond their small town mentality.

And, to keep it simple?
We are the "free willers."

What they call" free willers" are the blacks, and they are the KKK.

It's dealing with something on that level.

Could be worse though.
If this were centuries ago, they would want us burned on a stake.... like they used to do when TULIP was invented.

TULIP was spawned out of that level of thinking.
What a pity that none of your "great teachers" taught you anything about civil discourse, respect and courtesy. You're another one whose heart is filled with hate.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,670
5,913
113
No, it doesn't. I think that what you call "harmonization" is actually you trying to force the verses to mean what you want them to.
I noticed also that you tend to read into verses assumptions not stated therein, which is different than harmonizing them.

Believe me, I hope I've missed something germane regarding the second death, and that I'm wrong, as I don't like it any more than you do, but as far as I can see, unfortunately, these verses seem pretty conclusive - that if someone doesn't become saved by God during their lifetime, they will be cast into the lake of fire. Read them closely

[Rev 20:6 KJV]
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[Rev 20:14-15 KJV]
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God hates the unsaved because they are not justified by Christ, and therefore, their sin remains. Until saved, all are guilty of sin worthy of death.

[Rom 9:11 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

[Rom 9:13-15 KJV]
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.



But the question is: who is it that will truly believe and why will they believe? Answer: true belief comes only as a gift from God; it is not by man.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[1Pe 1:20-21 KJV]
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Phl 1:29 KJV]
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;



Old Covenant was based upon our works. Our choice was one of those required works. However, we are under the New Covenant
now. Our works, including our choices, are no longer required, nor permitted. Instead, God did it all on our behalf. In the following verses that describe the New Covenant, observe the "I will", the "will I". By that, we can know there is nothing left that man must do to effectuate the new covenant for ourselves. For those so chosen to be under the New Covenant, the Old Covenant and its stipulations are neither in effect nor applicable.

[Heb 8:9-12 KJV]
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, ands write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.



It is speaking not about individuals but about the Jewish religious infrastructure. God is telling the Jews that salvation would no
longer be through their religion - that their religious house would be left barren regarding salvation. Notice individuals are not in view, but Jerusalem is, the old holy city, and seat of the Jewish religion.



You missed significant verses that you should have used to harmonize it. Those verses define who the "all" actually are.

[Jhn 6:37 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
[Jhn 17:9 KJV] 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.



Doesn't that verse (and the one prior to it), actually support my position, not yours?

[Rom 11:6-7 KJV]
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded



Okay, at this point, I'm not even following you. These verses support election and the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant. They speak only of the elect being justified by God apart from anything they may do - whether good or bad. Not everyone has been chosen to be holy and without blame from before the foundation of the world. Those elected, God chose, they did not choose Him, nor themselves.

[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Actually, I think I'm getting close to the maximum allowable for a post, so I will stop now and probably address
the remainder sometime in the future. Suffice it to say though, that pertaining to salvation, God does it all. If He didn't, then no one would/could become saved. Salvation is bestowed on those not deserving of it who were none the less chosen by an exceedingly merciful and gracious God through Jesus Christ.
“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.”

this is spoken of Israel’s tribes and the promised remnant that’s not who we are

We are of this group that those chosen isralites were sent to witness to

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Again early in the prayer he’s talking about the apostles and chosen disciples of Israel who were spared of the curse and given to the messiah

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:6-8‬ ‭

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:9‬ ‭KJV‬

later in the prayer he prays also for all believers in tbe world that th owe chosen men would witness the gospel to ( they wrote the nt of the Bible and witness Jesus even today )

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

tour fauling to recognize Jesus death burial and resurrection and it’s impact for all humanity

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-

they were chosen of Israel’s remnant in Jesus generation to witness the gospel to all creation

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The choosing of Israel’s remnant is Old Testament doctrine based on tbier breaking of the covenant and provoking god to anger and fulfilling thier covenant curses it has nothing to do with salvation