You still overlooked it because your answer is totally irrelevant to my question, which again is: WHAT DID JESUS MEAN WHEN HE SAID, "I NEVER KNEW YOU"? Telling me that all who claim to be Christians aren't or that they don't manifest the fruit of the Spirit doesn't cut it. That kind of non-answer doesn't tell me what Jesus meant by his four words. Your focus should be on Jesus' four words and not the recipients of those words. Also, you need to explain the contrast between Rom 8:29; 11:2 and Mat 7:23
Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
No, not to gain salvation - it is a byproduct of becoming saved. That someone comes to belief in Christ is God's work not man's. There is nothing that a man can do to become saved- it is not within his power to do so. That is why Jesus has the title of Savior and man does not.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
And therein is the huge problem with FWT since freewillers have repeatedly said that Jesus is only a potential savior. Therefore, the real, true, legitimate, genuine, bona fide, actual savior is the person making the "free" will choice. FTW further implies that that person actually began the work of his/her own salvation, which of course contradicts scripture. God's hands are tied. He cannot act until a choice is made; therefore, logically God can never begin the work of salvation in any of us if we are to believe freewillers.
-
1
- Show all
The Israel that IS Israel and "real" Jews, are all of the elect - whether in this life they be Jew or Gentile. They become so because
God has chosen them the citizens of the Israel of God.
[Gal 3:28-29 KJV]
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
God has chosen them the citizens of the Israel of God.
[Gal 3:28-29 KJV]
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
I think if you like being immune to your own invented phraseology that's your business.
The idea that man has control over their choice to accept the Gospel and Salvation diminishes the Biblical quality of God's Sovereignty.
That prescient view repeals the scriptures that define the Election of God. It puts man in control, not God.
That is falsity.It is also damnation. Because the proponents of that doctrine are writing their own scriptures to promote it.
Ephesians 1
The idea that man has control over their choice to accept the Gospel and Salvation diminishes the Biblical quality of God's Sovereignty.
That prescient view repeals the scriptures that define the Election of God. It puts man in control, not God.
That is falsity.It is also damnation. Because the proponents of that doctrine are writing their own scriptures to promote it.
Ephesians 1
Re our disagreement about whose interpretation of Scripture is closer to correct--yours which ignores much of God's Word/posts and thinks He hates half of humanity, or mine which harmonizes all of GW and affirms that God loves all of humanity: Have I made you a heavenly bet yet? :^)
Re "presuppositions": You are unfamiliar with my truthseeker theology (TST :^):
The present study “begins” in the midst of this writer’s life and learning by seeking to assume the position or condition of adult innocence (unprejudice). Imagine that you have suddenly begun to exist as a mentally competent or normally intelligent human being (like Adam and Eve in Genesis). Certainly, your immediate concern would be meeting your survival needs, but as soon as there was time for reflection, would you not wonder why you were “born”, how you should behave, and what you ought to accomplish with your life?
The problem for truthseekers is evaluating the various teachers or claimants to knowledge, especially when their messages are contradictory. In my opinion humanism provides no hope for ultimate “oughtness”, because there is no logical way to avoid moral relativism without a superhuman Judge. Karmaism offers a rationale for reincarnation, but I have explained why I view it as incredible. Naturalism does not even provide a rationale for morality/the UMI, but rather it implies that what is, is right. However, I do find reasons to believe NT theism is true.
While conducting a comprehensive comparison of theistic religions is not my desire, I think any open-minded truthseeker who compares the NT teachings of Jesus and Paul with the founding scriptures of other religions will reach the same conclusion as I have: The NT is the most credible canon or collection of writings purporting to be a communique from God. The NT hope for heaven is based on evidence in support of Jesus’ claim to be Messiah/Christ, which includes: the prophecy or foreshadowing of His life (in various OT scriptures, including IS 53 and PS 22, and by the sacrificial system), the purpose of His death (as explained in the NT, such as HB 7:18-10:18), and the probability or credibility of His resurrection (in history as recorded by the last chapters of the Gospels and RM 1:3-4).
Humanity’s existential need and desire for eternal life and ultimate justice make it logical for truthseekers to have a propensity to hope and believe a God who provides the DOD exists, to determine the most credible revelation of God’s requirement for attaining heaven, and to cooperate with His revealed will... Again, it seems logical given the existential facts of death and imperfect justice that an unbiased truthseeker would have a propensity to hope the Christian view is correct, because there is no better (credible and desirable) way of attaining the DOD than NT theism.
Atheists deny the validity of this argument, but in the absence of disproof, I find the decision to reject the biblical gospel of salvation from selfishness, spiritual death, and a miserable destiny to be illogical or foolish. This is why all truthseekers should believe NT theism now.
As truthseekers, whenever we encounter someone who has a contradictory understanding, we want to learn which is the better belief, to admit when we are wrong, and to change our opinion. As people-lovers we want to share our knowledge with other truthseekers, so that we may fellowship (2TM 4:3-4, 1JN 1:3).
Re rewards: Many occur during our earthly sojourn, but the ultimate blessing is heaven, which we begin to receive at conversion and which culminates with resurrection.
Re FWT: You seem to have a bad view of it, but perhaps it is a strawman you attack, because I notice that "In FWT, man must first do his part, THEN God will reciprocate by rewarding that person with eternal life" ignores my saying "No, God initiates; souls cooperate--or not."
Yes, not permitting volition would be tantamount to tyrannical bullying by any dictionary definition.
Yes, God is pleased when souls choose to repent and believe in Christ, and the angels rejoice along with Him per LK 15:7. I guess you think He says, "Oh darn, another one I cannot damn!"
Re "Mat 7:23: "I never knew you". What did he mean by that!?" He meant that He knew from the beginning that their repentance was insincere.
Re "presuppositions": You are unfamiliar with my truthseeker theology (TST :^):
The present study “begins” in the midst of this writer’s life and learning by seeking to assume the position or condition of adult innocence (unprejudice). Imagine that you have suddenly begun to exist as a mentally competent or normally intelligent human being (like Adam and Eve in Genesis). Certainly, your immediate concern would be meeting your survival needs, but as soon as there was time for reflection, would you not wonder why you were “born”, how you should behave, and what you ought to accomplish with your life?
The problem for truthseekers is evaluating the various teachers or claimants to knowledge, especially when their messages are contradictory. In my opinion humanism provides no hope for ultimate “oughtness”, because there is no logical way to avoid moral relativism without a superhuman Judge. Karmaism offers a rationale for reincarnation, but I have explained why I view it as incredible. Naturalism does not even provide a rationale for morality/the UMI, but rather it implies that what is, is right. However, I do find reasons to believe NT theism is true.
While conducting a comprehensive comparison of theistic religions is not my desire, I think any open-minded truthseeker who compares the NT teachings of Jesus and Paul with the founding scriptures of other religions will reach the same conclusion as I have: The NT is the most credible canon or collection of writings purporting to be a communique from God. The NT hope for heaven is based on evidence in support of Jesus’ claim to be Messiah/Christ, which includes: the prophecy or foreshadowing of His life (in various OT scriptures, including IS 53 and PS 22, and by the sacrificial system), the purpose of His death (as explained in the NT, such as HB 7:18-10:18), and the probability or credibility of His resurrection (in history as recorded by the last chapters of the Gospels and RM 1:3-4).
Humanity’s existential need and desire for eternal life and ultimate justice make it logical for truthseekers to have a propensity to hope and believe a God who provides the DOD exists, to determine the most credible revelation of God’s requirement for attaining heaven, and to cooperate with His revealed will... Again, it seems logical given the existential facts of death and imperfect justice that an unbiased truthseeker would have a propensity to hope the Christian view is correct, because there is no better (credible and desirable) way of attaining the DOD than NT theism.
Atheists deny the validity of this argument, but in the absence of disproof, I find the decision to reject the biblical gospel of salvation from selfishness, spiritual death, and a miserable destiny to be illogical or foolish. This is why all truthseekers should believe NT theism now.
As truthseekers, whenever we encounter someone who has a contradictory understanding, we want to learn which is the better belief, to admit when we are wrong, and to change our opinion. As people-lovers we want to share our knowledge with other truthseekers, so that we may fellowship (2TM 4:3-4, 1JN 1:3).
Re rewards: Many occur during our earthly sojourn, but the ultimate blessing is heaven, which we begin to receive at conversion and which culminates with resurrection.
Re FWT: You seem to have a bad view of it, but perhaps it is a strawman you attack, because I notice that "In FWT, man must first do his part, THEN God will reciprocate by rewarding that person with eternal life" ignores my saying "No, God initiates; souls cooperate--or not."
Yes, not permitting volition would be tantamount to tyrannical bullying by any dictionary definition.
Yes, God is pleased when souls choose to repent and believe in Christ, and the angels rejoice along with Him per LK 15:7. I guess you think He says, "Oh darn, another one I cannot damn!"
Re "Mat 7:23: "I never knew you". What did he mean by that!?" He meant that He knew from the beginning that their repentance was insincere.
Its bad enough as is...
I hope you stay away from my Jewish relatives.
You would make it very difficult to explain to them that not all Christians can't think straight.
One must be of the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to be a physical Jew.
Then, as a Jew, believe in the Lord to be a true Jew.
Today during the Church age, when a Jew believes in the Lord, he stops being a Jew, and becomes a new creation in Christ!
I warn you... You would not want to become a Jew today as a gentile if you were not circumcised.
Jews hold an everlasting future on the new earth as promised to the Jews in the OT.
Its in OT prophecy...
That is why some Jews were asking Jesus when He would be setting up his kingdom.
As for the Church?
Our everlasting home will not be on the new earth as the Jews will have.
The Church is not displacing the Jews as evil dominion theology claims!
Satan hates the Jews as a people, because God keeps using the Jew as a sign to show Satan how weak he is.
That he does not have the power to destroy God's plan for what He declares as true!
For The Messiah will be the seed of David, sitting on his 1000 year throne in the New Jerusalem.
No church member can replace that!
I hope you stay away from my Jewish relatives.
You would make it very difficult to explain to them that not all Christians can't think straight.
One must be of the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to be a physical Jew.
Then, as a Jew, believe in the Lord to be a true Jew.
Today during the Church age, when a Jew believes in the Lord, he stops being a Jew, and becomes a new creation in Christ!
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female,
for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28
I warn you... You would not want to become a Jew today as a gentile if you were not circumcised.
Jews hold an everlasting future on the new earth as promised to the Jews in the OT.
Its in OT prophecy...
That is why some Jews were asking Jesus when He would be setting up his kingdom.
As for the Church?
Our everlasting home will not be on the new earth as the Jews will have.
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there,
the Lord Jesus Christ." Philippians 3:20
The Church is not displacing the Jews as evil dominion theology claims!
Satan hates the Jews as a people, because God keeps using the Jew as a sign to show Satan how weak he is.
That he does not have the power to destroy God's plan for what He declares as true!
For The Messiah will be the seed of David, sitting on his 1000 year throne in the New Jerusalem.
No church member can replace that!
Thanks for your windy sermon.
So, by Jesus saying that "I never knew you", he's really saying that he did know from eternity that they were fake believers? But how could this be since he's saying that he never knew anything about them! Must be, right? Isn't that how you interpret Rom 8:29 that says POSITIVELY in part, "for those God foreknew...". Don't YOU interpret that as meaning that God gazed into his cosmic crystal ball and knew in eternity all those who would come to saving faith? And now you're going to take Jesus' NEGATIVE statement and turn it into a positive?
Is that what RBT taught you? If you were consistent, you'd have to say that Jesus on judgment day will be telling the false believers that he never knew anything about them.
Nice magic trick. You would have fit in very well with the sorcerers, magicians and enchanters on Pharaoh's court.
Secondly, with respect to God being pleased with souls who repent and believe, I do have thoughts on that. But it's not what you say. I had more in mind this text:
Rom 8:8
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
ESV
After all, only those who have and live by the Spirit can please God. But in FWT, no one receives the Spirit until AFTER they repent and believe. So how is it possible that flesh lovers (lovers of pleasure, darkness, money, themselves, etc.) can possibly please God -- or for that matter, in their deplorable spiritual condition, come to saving faith and repentance all by their lonesome? The unregenerate are actually in bondage to their flesh (sinful nature), and this is precisely why God is never pleased with such people. Jesus never taught anywhere that sinners can set themselves free from their own bondage.
Finally, whatever it is that you think that God initiates, He always falls short because it's not effectual. God never actually "delivers the goods". (After all...this is precisely why you freewillers look at Jesus as only a POTENTIAL Savior, remember?) Only unregenerate sinners can do what is effectual in FWT -- even though what is effectual with the unregenerate are their enslaved wills.
So, by Jesus saying that "I never knew you", he's really saying that he did know from eternity that they were fake believers? But how could this be since he's saying that he never knew anything about them! Must be, right? Isn't that how you interpret Rom 8:29 that says POSITIVELY in part, "for those God foreknew...". Don't YOU interpret that as meaning that God gazed into his cosmic crystal ball and knew in eternity all those who would come to saving faith? And now you're going to take Jesus' NEGATIVE statement and turn it into a positive?
Is that what RBT taught you? If you were consistent, you'd have to say that Jesus on judgment day will be telling the false believers that he never knew anything about them.Nice magic trick. You would have fit in very well with the sorcerers, magicians and enchanters on Pharaoh's court.
Secondly, with respect to God being pleased with souls who repent and believe, I do have thoughts on that. But it's not what you say. I had more in mind this text:
Rom 8:8
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
ESV
After all, only those who have and live by the Spirit can please God. But in FWT, no one receives the Spirit until AFTER they repent and believe. So how is it possible that flesh lovers (lovers of pleasure, darkness, money, themselves, etc.) can possibly please God -- or for that matter, in their deplorable spiritual condition, come to saving faith and repentance all by their lonesome? The unregenerate are actually in bondage to their flesh (sinful nature), and this is precisely why God is never pleased with such people. Jesus never taught anywhere that sinners can set themselves free from their own bondage.
Finally, whatever it is that you think that God initiates, He always falls short because it's not effectual. God never actually "delivers the goods". (After all...this is precisely why you freewillers look at Jesus as only a POTENTIAL Savior, remember?) Only unregenerate sinners can do what is effectual in FWT -- even though what is effectual with the unregenerate are their enslaved wills.