Salvation Lost? Really?

[studier]

No thanks. We do works to store up treasure in heaven and because of our love for the Lord,

...and because we were newly created to do good works - thus doing good works is part of our new nature in Christ and it is to become natural for us to do them.

Part of this is to accomplish our salvation with fear and trembling, as commanded, in cooperation with God who is working in us so we can both desire and work for His good pleasure (Phil2).

 

[Musicmaster]

...and because we were newly created to do good works - thus doing good works is part of our new nature in Christ and it is to become natural for us to do them.

Part of this is to accomplish our salvation with fear and trembling, as commanded, in cooperation with God who is working in us so we can both desire and work for His good pleasure (Phil2).

The only caveat I would throw into that is that we are to work OUT our salvation, not FOR our salvation. When you say "accomplish," that tends toward working FOR our salvation, which is contrary to grace, for if it is of works, then it is no more grace, as Paul stated in Romans 11:6.

I assume we agree on this, though.

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Gospel replacement theologians replace the gospel of Christ with other gospels that have different messages that confuse the children of God. Christ said there is one gospel to be proclaimed to every creature.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and proclaim the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15​

​

Gospel replacement theologians remind me of the serpent in the garden

Now the gospel replacement theologian was more subtle than any theologian of the field which the LORD God had made.​

​

And he said unto the Christian, "Yea, hath God said, There is only one gospel?"​

​

And the Christian said unto the replacement theologian, "The is only the gospel of Christ. God hath said we shall not to hearken to any other gospel. lest we be led astray and perish"​

​

And the gospel replacement theologian said unto the Christian, "Ye shall not surely be led astray and perish: For God doth know that in the day ye hearken to another gospel, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing right division."​

 

[studier]

The only caveat I would throw into that is that we are to work OUT our salvation, not FOR our salvation. When you say "accomplish," that tends toward working FOR our salvation, which is contrary to grace, for if it is of works, then it is no more grace, as Paul stated in Romans 11:6.

I assume we agree on this, though.

MM

Maybe not. The word translated as "work out" is very simply a word that means to accomplish something by work. Since that's what the word means, it cannot be contrary to grace. What if it's part of our good works we were created to do in Christ in Spirit to work with God to accomplish what He gave us to do? Still contrary to grace? Consider grace per Titus2:11-15

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

2) Maintaining one's salvation is yet another element of the Kingdom Gospel that was not ever verbalized nor written about by Paul to the body of Christ. James wrote the twelve tribes of Israel that they had to do works as the evidence of their faith. Paul never wrote any such thing to us under his gospel of Christ given to him directly from Christ Jesus. Again, that is ANOTHER gospel as characterized by the necessity for WORKS.

Gospel replacement theologians must never read the bible (or are hoping you never read the bible) because this is what Paul wrote about works as evidence of faith:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10​

​

Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 1 Timothy 6:17-18​

​

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Timothy 3:16-4:1​

​

In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Titus 2:7​

​

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Titus 2:14​

​

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. Titus 3:8​

​

And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful. Titus 3:14​

​

And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Hebrews 10:24​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So, the massive confusions that have arisen when intermixing ANOTHER gospel with the Gospel of Grace, we can see how that mixture has caused much divisional destruction of unity, and that's sad. I hate to see it.

You're having a sad and hate to see the massive confusion and much divisional destruction of unity among the children of God and in their minds that you yourself are causing by teaching there are 2 gospels

 

[Magenta]

I'll not be afraid of God. Fear does not induce respect.

In the human realm it fear causes panic and restraining orders.

If God is love we do not feel despair. God calms apprehension. He doesn't engender it.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love.

 

[Cranberry]

There is some merit to that consideration, but my experience with all this has not shown to me one person on the side of the Gospel of Grace who ever even hinted at the idea of license for sin. All that I have ever heard is the voices of legalists who stand on the side of the Kingdom Gospel still being in effect today allegedly being their out from the accusation of equally practicing license for sin.

What I'm saying is that the legalism of required water baptism doesn't have some magical force that keeps them from equally living out license for sin. We all still sin...every day; the difference being that sin in our lives has become the exception rather than the rule. Does that make sense?

So, when legalists claim we under grace believe we now have license to sin because of our always being saved and not required to do works for salvation and to retain salvation, that only drives home to me the depravity on the side of all the legalists who stand under the legalisms of the Kingdom Gospel.

No thanks. We do works to store up treasure in heaven and because of our love for the Lord, and are fully aware of the horrors that will be experienced by all those who have no treasures of reward in Heaven awaiting them.

So, by all means, try to obtain and retain salvation by works all you want, but I will not gamble that system as still being valid because I know that it is not since it was not spoken nor written TO us.

Carry on, my friend. Carry on as best you can in your efforts. I defend your right to believe as you wish.

MM

For my part I think those who practice or think irrevocable grace and its Salvation are a license to Sin are not in grace or in Christ.

Nominal ideology,yes. Spiritual redemption,no.

I also think if we do good things in service to God's leading and will thinking of the Heavenly rewards those will tally for us, God is not unaware of that. And our rewards won't tally because they are self serving.

 

[Musicmaster]

Maybe not. The word translated as "work out" is very simply a word that means to accomplish something by work. Since that's what the word means, it cannot be contrary to grace. What if it's part of our good works we were created to do in Christ in Spirit to work with God to accomplish what He gave us to do? Still contrary to grace? Consider grace per Titus2:11-15

Allowing scripture to interpret scripture in relation to understanding the definition of the "work out" from the original Greek word, meaning (from Thayer's Greek Lexicon):

b. to work out (Latinefficere), i. e. to do that from which something results; of man: τήν σωτηραν, make every effort to obtain salvation, Philippians 2:12

Paul, in his gospel, revealed to us what is necessary for salvation, which is by grace through faith. Faith is the only element necessary for salvation rather than the works of the flesh.

Obtaining salvation by grace, then, is by faith, and nothing else. Granted, the renewing of our minds and our being born again, we do by nature the good works after the fact, which I think we both agree.

I just wanted to make that clear for those who think they see in that text that obtaining salvation is by works such as water baptism and possibly other things thrown into the mix by various false religion in the world.

Good stuff. Thanks for your feedback.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

For my part I think those who practice or think irrevocable grace and its Salvation are a license to Sin are not in grace or in Christ.

Nominal ideology,yes. Spiritual redemption,no.

I also think if we do good things in service to God's leading and will thinking of the Heavenly rewards those will tally for us, God is not unaware of that. And our rewards won't tally because they are self serving.

Perhaps it's a good thing that we cannot see what rewards await us on the basis of our works. The only hint that I can recall is what Jesus stated:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So, inferiority of works by not doing good works or possibly even nullifying anything that may be stored up, he is still saved. My old professor liked calling that "Smelling like one had been bought at a fire sale in Heaven..."

MM

 

[ServantofMostHigh]

There was a time, in my more ignorant past, where I believed that one could lose his salvation. Boy was I wrong, and here's why:

To point at someone, or even at self, and claim one or another had lost his or her salvation at some point in the past, or are standing in that jeopardized position at the present time, that is nothing but works-based salvation!

Some may say, "Now, wait a minute! There are many out there who have lost their salvation. Some have even regained it, and then lost it again..." On and on the claims will go by those who are actually trying to convey the idea that they are authorities over who is saved and who is not, sometimes just by looking at others or at themselves throughout the years of their own past.

What REALLY do they know about anything having to do with salvation if it is a thing that can so easily be lost, which leads to no other conclusion than the idea that Holy Spirit has a very weak grasp upon the saved, with many having been plucked from the Hand of Christ Jesus, which is contradictory to the scriptures.

Think about it...if anyone can lose their salvation, then retention of salvation is by the efforts of each individual rather than the perfectly finished work of Christ Jesus. That individual is claiming, then, that they still have theirs because of their own efforts, where others allegedly lost theirs by not retaining it through good works or abstinence from some measure of sin that has a line they cannot define authoritatively.

Folks, that is indeed BOASTING. That is nothing short of silently claiming that they have "worked" to abstain from walking those paths that others were, or are, walking who have allegedly lost their salvation. Do you see the dichotomy in that? Casting salvation into a mixing bowl that has any leavened ingredient of a work on our part, and the entire lump is leavened.

So, who among you has ever known anyone who allegedly ever lost their salvation, and how did you prove that, even if you're going to make yourself the target of that claim? Your feelings? Their feelings? What you saw coming out of them or yourself? Who among us no longer has any expressions of sin exuding from us each and every day? Who among us is living in sinless perfection? Who among us has no sin?

Who here can draw that line that others can see whereby crossing it would or does lead to loss of salvation?

Conversely, pointing at self or someone else, and claiming loss of salvation at some point in the past, how can we know they or you were ever saved at all in the first place to have allegedly lost it?

It's a snake eating its own proverbial tail.

Do you see the issue here?

It is either works, or it is grace. It cannot be both, for there is no power on this earth that can truly intermix them together under the Gospel of Grace.

MM

my Brothers and Sisters I by no means condone sin, but we can barely go a day without sinning but if you Love The Father He shows how Mighty and Forgiving He really is....He knows who His Family is and there is no power that can break His Love for His Family , how we treat Him will be reflected by His awesome Grace His Faithfulness is never ending and the enemy will constantly say we are not good enough , he will say we are condemned but when you Love The Father His grace is so powerful that we doubt but The Father will constantly reassure us , I know this through personal experience..iam a terrible person at times and the enemy tries tearing me down but each time I doubt Father will do something that reassures me, there are times when I feel alone but there isn't a thought that goes unnoticed,
He has access to all knowledge and He does not sleep, yes He will step back to let us learn how to walk but He is always there ready to catch us because the depth of Love He feels for us is beyond words.
Reassure each other and Praise Him for His goodness and that's how He Knows we are His.
The system throws accusations constantly at Him and blames Him for all the evil in the world but because we perceive His goodness we must be witnesses for Him.
Build each other , we are not here to condemn we are here to show how Good He is and help each other, we are to be a reflection of Him, don't listen to the enemy within...he has nothing good to say...Love each other as our Father Loves us and that's how we defeat the enemy.

 

[ServantofMostHigh]

anyone want a chat that investigates the depth of Knowledge Wisdom and Love?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

anyone want a chat that investigates the depth of Knowledge Wisdom and Love?

Sure, start a thread

 

[Musicmaster]

anyone want a chat that investigates the depth of Knowledge Wisdom and Love?

You can start your own thread on that if you like.

MM

 

[ServantofMostHigh]

You can start your own thread on that if you like.

MM

I don't know how this works properly iam new. I would like a philosophical debate with someone

 

[ServantofMostHigh]

Sure, start a thread

have you anything you would like to know?

 

[ServantofMostHigh]

there is no power that can separate us from The Father, we're i to hide in the depths You are there, if I would hide in the darkness it would be like light to you. you know my lying down and when I rise,

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I don't know how this works properly iam new. I would like a philosophical debate with someone

Go here > https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/ and click on the Post thread button to start a new thread

 

[studier]

Allowing scripture to interpret scripture in relation to understanding the definition of the "work out" from the original Greek word, meaning (from Thayer's Greek Lexicon):

b. to work out (Latinefficere), i. e. to do that from which something results; of man: τήν σωτηραν, make every effort to obtain salvation, Philippians 2:12

Appreciate the response. A few comments:

• I agree that we use Scripture to interpret Scripture. As you've done, I also use Lexicons - several of them - and other tools to help define and translate words.
• Since you linked me to a Bible Study site that looks to have Thayer's and Strongs and maybe a few other tools, and since I have access to many more tools, I'll say that we also have to be diligent when using them because some Lexicons can also be giving us some theological definitions.
• Reading Thayer's, which I have on my system, I still do not see the need for "work out" and comparing to the Latin word. If I simply paraphrase its paraphrased translation, I could come up with "make every effort (work) to obtain (accomplish) salvation. It looks to me like Thayer's is trying to keep from translating in a way that could be taken as "works salvation". But I don't like translators to protect me based upon their theological traditions. I just want to know what the Texts says, so I learned Greek.

Paul, in his gospel, revealed to us what is necessary for salvation, which is by grace through faith. Faith is the only element necessary for salvation rather than the works of the flesh.

• Paul did write what you say. Paul also wrote Philippians. He also wrote other things about Faith, Grace and Salvation, and all of the Text needs to be in agreement re: these things.
• I haven't read all of what you've been writing, but I am a bit uncomfortable with some of the wording I'm seeing.

Obtaining salvation by grace, then, is by faith, and nothing else. Granted, the renewing of our minds and our being born again, we do by nature the good works after the fact, which I think we both agree.

• What does "obtaining salvation" mean? Does it mean entering into God's Salvation Plan by His grace through Faith not by works? Does it mean something else? Is "salvation" spoken of in just this entering (or just in the past tense like "save by grace through faith not by works) or is salvation spoken of in other tenses also?
• Unless the just above question is answered, "by faith, and nothing else" becomes worthy of questions.
• I'll skip the born again statement for now and stick with the above.
• I do agree that the good works are "after the fact" or subsequent to coming to truly believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God which means He is YHWH's KING, the Only Absolute Ruler, etc. And by "truly believe" I mean we are submitted to who He is.
• What I'm not sure is whether or not we see salvation the same way. The way I see salvation from the Text, I have zero issues with accepting the greater Lexical evidence for the way I translated "accomplish our salvation" in Phil2 and I have no concerns for running afoul of any "works salvation" issues as Paul speaks of such things.
• Do you view salvation as only past tense for the Christian or do you see salvation as a process that includes such things as renewing the mind as you pointed out?

 

[Cranberry]

Perhaps it's a good thing that we cannot see what rewards await us on the basis of our works. The only hint that I can recall is what Jesus stated:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So, inferiority of works by not doing good works or possibly even nullifying anything that may be stored up, he is still saved. My old professor liked calling that "Smelling like one had been bought at a fire sale in Heaven..."

MM

We certainly should follow God's leading to serve. I just think thinking of the reward tally too is not good for my journey. It never crossed my mind till this thread.