Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture

[GWH]

you have read it yourself, why then do you need me to repeat it to you?

Apparently you need me to repeat that my intent is for us to conduct a systematic or thorough study of parables, so ideally we will cover every parable before we are through, at which time we will be able to summarize what we have learned.

At this point we are learning that the TOJ in the Parable of the Lost Sheep is that God is not willing for believers to wander and perish, but we see no indication that Jesus intended to hide this truth from some folks.

What do you think? I know you think He did, so we will consider whether there is a reason that does not contradict teachings that God is all-loving and not tricky after getting all of the parables on the table for our consideration (although this systematic hermeneutic taxes your patience :^)

 

[posthuman]

Apparently you need me to repeat that my intent is for us to conduct a systematic or thorough study of parables, so ideally we will cover every parable before we are through, at which time we will be able to summarize what we have learned

apparently you should have answered me in the other thread instead of directing me here, if you are also unwilling to participate in discussion here,

and apparently you missed it the half dozen times i have repeated God's Word in this thread, where He explains that the purpose of teaching in parables is to selectively hide and reveal knowledge, and also you missed it ((or more likely flat out rejected it)) when God Himself said it.

so, like i said, if you reject the Word of God what is anyone supposed to say to you, and further, makes you think you are qualified to teach it?

 

[GWH]

apparently you should have answered me in the other thread instead of directing me here, if you are also unwilling to participate in discussion here,

and apparently you missed it the half dozen times i have repeated God's Word in this thread, where He explains that the purpose of teaching in parables is to selectively hide and reveal knowledge, and also you missed it ((or more likely flat out rejected it)) when God Himself said it.

so, like i said, if you reject the Word of God what is anyone supposed to say to you, and further, makes you think you are qualified to teach it?

I want to participate in both discussion and study of the parables--IOW a three way discussion. I have your part, but I am waiting until after learning God's part before deciding what is my part.

God's next part is the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant in MT 18:21-35, in which Jesus compares the KOH to a king who wanted to collect what his servants owed him.

The first servant owed 10,000 bags of gold, but he could not pay, so the king ordered his family be sold to pay the debt. However, the servant pled with the king to be patient, and the king took pity on him and canceled the debt.

Then the servant went out and found another servant who owed him 100 silver coins. He began to choke the man and demanded that he pay what he owed. The man begged him to be patient and promised to pay the debt, but the first servant refused to take pity and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay up.

Other servants saw what had happened and told the king, who called that servant in and said, "You wicked servant. I forgave your debt when you begged me to, so you should have had mercy on your fellow servant like I had on you."

Then the king handed the servant over to the jailers to be tortured until he repaid all he owed.

Jesus concluded by saying, "This is how my heavenly Father will treat you unless you forgive your sibling."

What conclusions can we draw from this parable about Jesus' use of parables in his teaching?

 

[posthuman]

but I am waiting until after learning God's part before deciding what is my part.

Luke 23:3​

Pilate asked Him, saying, ​

art Thou the King of the Jews? ​

And He answered him and said, ​

thou sayest.​

 

[GWH]

Luke 23:3​

Pilate asked Him, saying, ​

art Thou the King of the Jews? ​

And He answered him and said, ​

thou sayest.​

I have wondered if the wording of that verse would be better translated, "Pilate asked Him, saying,
Thou art King of the Jews?"

And He answered him and said [keying on the wording that could be a declarative sentence]
"Thou sayest." ["You have said so" in the NIV]

 

[posthuman]

I have wondered if the wording of that verse would be better translated, "Pilate asked Him, saying,
Thou art King of the Jews?"

And He answered him and said [keying on the wording that could be a declarative sentence]
"Thou sayest." ["You have said so" in the NIV]

both Pilate's statement and Christ's are intentionally ambiguous

 

[GWH]

both Pilate's statement and Christ's are intentionally ambiguous

We come now to the Parable of the Workers in MT 20:1-16, in which Jesus compared the KOH to a landowner who hired workers for his vineyard early in the morning at the agreed wage of one denarius for the day. About nine a.m. he hired more workers, saying that he would pay them what is right. At noon and at five p.m. he did the same thing. At the end of the workday the owner of the vineyard told the foreman to pay all of the workers he had hired one denarius each, so the ones who were hired first complained about not getting paid more than those who were hired last. However, the landowner declared that he was being fair, because he paid what had been agreed on, saying that he had the right to determine the pay scale and asking, "Are you envious because I am generous?" Jesus ends by saying, "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

Again, we can see what the parable teaches, but is there anything to be learned about whether Jesus wanted to hide its meaning from anyone?

 

[posthuman]

Again, we can see what the parable teaches, but is there anything to be learned about whether Jesus wanted to hide its meaning from anyone?

if you are not seeing it, it is hidden from you.

why do you resist the Word of God so strongly?

Mark 4:10-13​

And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, ​

Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: ​

That seeing they may see, and not perceive; ​

and hearing they may hear, and not understand; ​

lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them. ​

And He said unto them, ​

Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?​

​

what can we learn from God's own testimony about the purpose of God's own parables?

 

[posthuman]

is there anything to be learned about whether Jesus wanted to hide its meaning from anyone?

i propose an experiment.

@GWH
tell us what the wage is

if you are not seeing it, it is hidden from you.

 

[Magenta]

if you are not seeing it, it is hidden from you.

why do you resist the Word of God so strongly?

Mark 4:10-13​

And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, ​

Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: ​

That seeing they may see, and not perceive; ​

and hearing they may hear, and not understand; ​

lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them. ​

And He said unto them, ​

Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?​

​

what can we learn from God's own testimony about the purpose of God's own parables?

Matthew 13:16-17 Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

 

[GWH]

i propose an experiment.

@GWH
tell us what the wage is

Heaven

 

[posthuman]

Heaven

salvation is a gift, not a wage.

Romans 4:4​

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.​

​

Romans 11:6-8​

And if by grace, then [it is] no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if [it is] of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. ​

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written: ​

"God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day."​

​

now,
why didn't you see this?
did God fail to communicate it to you?
or did He purpose that you should learn it now, from someone else, so you don't think of yourself, that you know all things and understand all things?

the disciples had to have parables explained to them. was God incapable of presenting a parable they would understand? or did He perfectly do these things so they would know they must receive knowledge from Him Who taught them?

 

[posthuman]

Heaven

a family, and an habitation

Matthew 19:27-30​

Then Peter answered and said to Him, ​

"See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?"​

So Jesus said to them, ​

"Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first."​

​

Matthew 20:1 ​

"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard..." ​

 

[GWH]

salvation is a gift, not a wage.

Romans 4:4​

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.​

​

Romans 11:6-8​

And if by grace, then [it is] no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if [it is] of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. ​

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written: ​

"God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day."​

​

now,
why didn't you see this?
did God fail to communicate it to you?
or did He purpose that you should learn it now, from someone else, so you don't think of yourself, that you know all things and understand all things?

the disciples had to have parables explained to them. was God incapable of presenting a parable they would understand? or did He perfectly do these things so they would know they must receive knowledge from Him Who taught them?

Jesus is the one who compared all believers receiving the same destiny (heaven/salvation) with every worker receiving the same wage, so you need to address those questions to HIM (but I don't advise it :^)

 

[posthuman]

Jesus is the one who compared all believers receiving the same destiny (heaven/salvation) with every worker receiving the same wage, so you need to address those questions to HIM (but I don't advise it :^)

He says eternal life is "inherited" not earned.

Peter asks Him what they will "therefore" receive because they have left homes and family, and He tells them the parable in Matthew 20 as a reply.

eternal life, salvation, entrance into the kingdom of heaven, is not a wage. it is not by works but by grace, as Paul - the brother we all receive - carefully explained.

even if you were correct - tho you are incorrect - my point is proven. what God Himself says about the purpose of parables is true, that they selectively hide and reveal knowledge of His Kingdom. if He desired all to perfectly understand He would speak plainly - but He spoke instead in parables.

this is something to praise and thank Him for, not to reject and to despise Him over:

Matthew 11:25​

At that time Jesus answered and said, ​

"I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes!" ​

 

[PaulThomson]

if you are not seeing it, it is hidden from you.

why do you resist the Word of God so strongly?

Mark 4:10-13​

And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, ​

Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: ​

That seeing they may see, and not perceive; ​

and hearing they may hear, and not understand; ​

lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them. ​

And He said unto them, ​

Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?​

​

what can we learn from God's own testimony about the purpose of God's own parables?

I think I'm beginning to see the point of this thread. It seems that by "the doctrine of parables" GWH means "what the scriptures teach on the purpose of God using parables". And there seems to be a disagreement over whether God's parables are intended to hide truth from the non-elect, but God grants divine gnosis to the elect so that only they can understand them; or are they intended to inform, but people blind themselves from understanding them because of their preconceptions and habits that are antagonistic towards the evident meaning of the parables.

GWH's aim seems to be to discern, by looking at all the parables themselves, whether they themselves reveal the purpose of their use. You seem to strongly lean towards God's purpose in using them being to hide truth from the non-elect, based on the above text From Mark (and others like it). You seem to see two contradictory affirmations in scripture: God wants all to be saved by faith; but God also intentionally hides the truth that allows saving faith from certain people so they cannot repent and believe to be saved. You seem to advocate embracing the contradiction and surrender to the cognitive dissonance. But maybe the one of your contrary affirmations is not actually what the Bible is saying. Maybe the Bible does not say that God is deliberately hiding the truth from some so that they cannot repent and believe and be saved. Maybe those who are hostile to the truth would be a continual aggressive disruption to the ministry of God's word toward those who are open to its truth, if the hostile ones understood the claims being made that they would truculently refuse even to consider, so in order to create a calmer learning space for the open-hearted, God's prophets present God's truth in the form of mundane stories that the hostile consider beneath their intellect to spend time interpreting. So, they leave to do something they consider more productive, leaving the teaching space to Jesus and those who love and hunger for goodness and mercy.

Mark 4:10-13​

And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, ​

Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: ​

That seeing (present active participle) they may keep on seeing (present active subjunctive), and may not keep on perceiving (present active subjunctive); ​

and hearing (present active participle) they may keep on hearing (present active subjunctive), and may not keep on understanding (present active subjunctive); ​

​

Jesus uses the present subjunctive here. The present subjunctive indicates an action that is a continuation of an action that has already started. So, some of those outside began to understand, but stopped understanding; and others outside began to understand and kept on understanding. Two options, hence the subjunctive.​

​

The aorist subjunctive would indicate an action beginning to occur. Had Jesus used the aorist subjunctive, He would have been saying that SOME might not start perceiving, and SOME might not start hearing. ​

​

Also we should note that Jesus does not use the indicative and say -​

​

That seeing they will keep on seeing, and will not keep on perceiving; ​

and hearing they will keep on hearing, and will not keep on understanding; ​

​

In other words, the intention is not that ALL outside will not perceive and will not understand. The intention is that SOME may ​

keep on perceiving and keep on understanding, and SOME outside may not keep on perceiving and keep on understanding. This does not equate to an intention that SOME would never even start to understand the parables. We see that the Pharisees understood the parable of the tenants in the vineyard, and that it was against them, but they closed their minds to its warning that they should repent from their murderous hatred of the Son.​

​

lest at any time they should start converting (aorist active subjunctive), and [their] sins should start to be forgiven (aorist passive subjunctive) to them. ​

​

Here we are told why those who do not keep on perceiving and do not keep on understanding do not keep on perceiving and do not keep on understanding. They stop perceiving and understanding because they refuse to make the changes in their behaviour that would release forgiveness upon them.​

​

So, this text does not at all say that God intentionally withholds perception and understanding from anyone. It says that some suppress their nascent perception and understanding of parables because the parables message begins to challenge habitual behaviour they are unwilling to consider changing. even if changing will gain them forgiveness.​

​

​

 

[GWH]

He says eternal life is "inherited" not earned.

Peter asks Him what they will "therefore" receive because they have left homes and family, and He tells them the parable in Matthew 20 as a reply.

eternal life, salvation, entrance into the kingdom of heaven, is not a wage. it is not by works but by grace, as Paul - the brother we all receive - carefully explained.

even if you were correct - tho you are incorrect - my point is proven. what God Himself says about the purpose of parables is true, that they selectively hide and reveal knowledge of His Kingdom. if He desired all to perfectly understand He would speak plainly - but He spoke instead in parables.

this is something to praise and thank Him for, not to reject and to despise Him over:

Matthew 11:25​

At that time Jesus answered and said, ​

"I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes!" ​

A parable teaches a point, and the Parable of the Workers/Wages was stated, but let us go on to the Parable of the Two Sons in MT 21:28-32, which he told in the temple courts to the priests and elders.

A father of two sons told one of them to go and work in the vineyard, but he refused at first before changing his mind and going. The father also told the other son to go work in the vineyard, and the son said he would, but then he did not go. Jesus asked, "Which of the sons did what his father wanted?" The hearers answered by saying the first son, so Jesus told them that tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the KOH ahead of them, because they did not believe the preaching of John and repent.

Did Jesus want the hearers to understand him and repent or not?

 

[posthuman]

I think I'm beginning to see the point of this thread. It seems that by "the doctrine of parables" GWH means "what the scriptures teach on the purpose of God using parables". And there seems to be a disagreement over whether God's parables are intended to hide truth from the non-elect, but God grants divine gnosis to the elect so that only they can understand them; or are they intended to inform, but people blind themselves from understanding them because of their preconceptions and habits that are antagonistic towards the evident meaning of the parables.

GWH's aim seems to be to discern, by looking at all the parables themselves, whether they themselves reveal the purpose of their use. You seem to strongly lean towards God's purpose in using them being to hide truth from the non-elect, based on the above text From Mark (and others like it). You seem to see two contradictory affirmations in scripture: God wants all to be saved by faith; but God also intentionally hides the truth that allows saving faith from certain people so they cannot repent and believe to be saved. You seem to advocate embracing the contradiction and surrender to the cognitive dissonance. But maybe the one of your contrary affirmations is not actually what the Bible is saying. Maybe the Bible does not say that God is deliberately hiding the truth from some so that they cannot repent and believe and be saved. Maybe those who are hostile to the truth would be a continual aggressive disruption to the ministry of God's word toward those who are open to its truth, if the hostile ones understood the claims being made that they would truculently refuse even to consider, so in order to create a calmer learning space for the open-hearted, God's prophets present God's truth in the form of mundane stories that the hostile consider beneath their intellect to spend time interpreting. So, they leave to do something they consider more productive, leaving the teaching space to Jesus and those who love and hunger for goodness and mercy.

Mark 4:10-13​

And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, ​

Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: ​

That seeing (present active participle) they may keep on seeing (present active subjunctive), and may not keep on perceiving (present active subjunctive); ​

and hearing (present active participle) they may keep on hearing (present active subjunctive), and may not keep on understanding (present active subjunctive); ​

​

Jesus uses the present subjunctive here. The present subjunctive indicates an action that is a continuation of an action that has already started. So, some of those outside began to understand, but stopped understanding; and others outside began to understand and kept on understanding. Two options, hence the subjunctive.​

​

The aorist subjunctive would indicate an action beginning to occur. Had Jesus used the aorist subjunctive, He would have been saying that SOME might not start perceiving, and SOME might not start hearing. ​

​

Also we should note that Jesus does not use the indicative and say -​

​

That seeing they will keep on seeing, and will not keep on perceiving; ​

and hearing they will keep on hearing, and will not keep on understanding; ​

​

In other words, the intention is not that ALL outside will not perceive and will not understand. The intention is that SOME may ​

keep on perceiving and keep on understanding, and SOME outside may not keep on perceiving and keep on understanding. This does not equate to an intention that SOME would never even start to understand the parables. We see that the Pharisees understood the parable of the tenants in the vineyard, and that it was against them, but they closed their minds to its warning that they should repent from their murderous hatred of the Son.​

​

lest at any time they should start converting (aorist active subjunctive), and [their] sins should start to be forgiven (aorist passive subjunctive) to them. ​

​

Here we are told why those who do not keep on perceiving and do not keep on understanding do not keep on perceiving and do not keep on understanding. They stop perceiving and understanding because they refuse to make the changes in their behaviour that would release forgiveness upon them.​

​

So, this text does not at all say that God intentionally withholds perception and understanding from anyone. It says that some suppress their nascent perception and understanding of parables because the parables message begins to challenge habitual behaviour they are unwilling to consider changing. even if changing will gain them forgiveness.​

​

​

while you may have an argument about the 'original cause' of a person's not perceiving or understanding - about which origin i have not commented - that does not undermine what God expressly stated about His purpose in speaking in parables.
in fact it substantiates it, because what you are describing is that His methodology in doing this provides for the blind and deaf to remain blind and deaf, rather than a methodology designed to open ears and eyes.

as stated before, when He wants all to clearly understand something, He speaks that thing clearly. God is infinitely capable of communication; He created it. He omnisciently chose at a certain time to use parables instead of plain speech, and i don't know why this is so hard to accept.

 

[GWH]

I think I'm beginning to see the point of this thread. It seems that by "the doctrine of parables" GWH means "what the scriptures teach on the purpose of God using parables". And there seems to be a disagreement over whether God's parables are intended to hide truth from the non-elect, but God grants divine gnosis to the elect so that only they can understand them; or are they intended to inform, but people blind themselves from understanding them because of their preconceptions and habits that are antagonistic towards the evident meaning of the parables.

GWH's aim seems to be to discern, by looking at all the parables themselves, whether they themselves reveal the purpose of their use. You seem to strongly lean towards God's purpose in using them being to hide truth from the non-elect, based on the above text From Mark (and others like it). You seem to see two contradictory affirmations in scripture: God wants all to be saved by faith; but God also intentionally hides the truth that allows saving faith from certain people so they cannot repent and believe to be saved. You seem to advocate embracing the contradiction and surrender to the cognitive dissonance. But maybe the one of your contrary affirmations is not actually what the Bible is saying. Maybe the Bible does not say that God is deliberately hiding the truth from some so that they cannot repent and believe and be saved. Maybe those who are hostile to the truth would be a continual aggressive disruption to the ministry of God's word toward those who are open to its truth, if the hostile ones understood the claims being made that they would truculently refuse even to consider, so in order to create a calmer learning space for the open-hearted, God's prophets present God's truth in the form of mundane stories that the hostile consider beneath their intellect to spend time interpreting. So, they leave to do something they consider more productive, leaving the teaching space to Jesus and those who love and hunger for goodness and mercy.

Mark 4:10-13​

And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, ​

Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: ​

That seeing (present active participle) they may keep on seeing (present active subjunctive), and may not keep on perceiving (present active subjunctive); ​

and hearing (present active participle) they may keep on hearing (present active subjunctive), and may not keep on understanding (present active subjunctive); ​

​

Jesus uses the present subjunctive here. The present subjunctive indicates an action that is a continuation of an action that has already started. So, some of those outside began to understand, but stopped understanding; and others outside began to understand and kept on understanding. Two options, hence the subjunctive.​

​

The aorist subjunctive would indicate an action beginning to occur. Had Jesus used the aorist subjunctive, He would have been saying that SOME might not start perceiving, and SOME might not start hearing. ​

​

Also we should note that Jesus does not use the indicative and say -​

​

That seeing they will keep on seeing, and will not keep on perceiving; ​

and hearing they will keep on hearing, and will not keep on understanding; ​

​

In other words, the intention is not that ALL outside will not perceive and will not understand. The intention is that SOME may ​

keep on perceiving and keep on understanding, and SOME outside may not keep on perceiving and keep on understanding. This does not equate to an intention that SOME would never even start to understand the parables. We see that the Pharisees understood the parable of the tenants in the vineyard, and that it was against them, but they closed their minds to its warning that they should repent from their murderous hatred of the Son.​

​

lest at any time they should start converting (aorist active subjunctive), and [their] sins should start to be forgiven (aorist passive subjunctive) to them. ​

​

Here we are told why those who do not keep on perceiving and do not keep on understanding do not keep on perceiving and do not keep on understanding. They stop perceiving and understanding because they refuse to make the changes in their behaviour that would release forgiveness upon them.​

​

So, this text does not at all say that God intentionally withholds perception and understanding from anyone. It says that some suppress their nascent perception and understanding of parables because the parables message begins to challenge habitual behaviour they are unwilling to consider changing. even if changing will gain them forgiveness.​

​

​

Bless you Paul! You are a credit to that name :^)

 

[posthuman]

Did Jesus want the hearers to understand him and repent or not?

under what circumstances do people repent?
having no sin, or having sin?