I would like some perspectives on Revelation.

[homwardbound]

The Book Of Revelation when combined with the complementary book of Daniel forecasts the entire history of the world. Most of the prophecies have now been fulfilled so it is possible to review history to develop an accurate interpretation of the events and symbols depicted in Revelation, this information will go a long way in helping understand the prophecies. You can view it on you tube at this link.

Jesus I see came to earth through Woman, not man, to fulfill the prophecies and law of his Father's love and mercy for us all. That is done by, through Son for us all, done once for all in his one time willing death. Who goes through that willingly, will anyone else go through all that he went through and it turns out for us the people, all of us and proof in his being risen from the dead and seen as risen, by over 500 witnesses, even those that got him killed.

That is all the prophesy I needed to see as fulfilled, Jesus risen where new life for us resides in Daddy's Spirit and Truth to us to stand in thanksgiving and praise and not use it for any self gain

 

[rrcn]

Jesus I see came to earth through Woman, not man, to fulfill the prophecies and law of his Father's love and mercy for us all. That is done by, through Son for us all, done once for all in his one time willing death. Who goes through that willingly, will anyone else go through all that he went through and it turns out for us the people, all of us and proof in his being risen from the dead and seen as risen, by over 500 witnesses, even those that got him killed.

That is all the prophesy I needed to see as fulfilled, Jesus risen where new life for us resides in Daddy's Spirit and Truth to us to stand in thanksgiving and praise and not use it for any self gain

So you don’t feel that the prophecies of Revelation are important?

 

[homwardbound]

It is for the Unbelievers, there will be those in that day, as there are those still in Unbelief today, not seeing this amazing love and mercy given them through Son is risen for them.
yes, what will be will be, what can I or you or anyone else do about that? Can we not see it is finished by Son for us to be new in willingness to God Father and Son as Won.
Can I, you or anyone else change it, can even a group of people change anything, Really? everything is set in motion for us to choose to believe or not believe God in risen Son or not! Each person consciously knows, whether they believe God or not from within each person. (Romans 8) as nothing can separate anyone from the love of God for them given through risen Son to stand in, that is me and many others also, and each takes no credit of fitness in the self ever anymore as each grow up in maturity (remaining humble) of this amazing gift given by God to us all to either believe it or not. I need Daddy, anyone else? That is sufficient for me to glory in I need God!
So today is the day to believe God in all things good or bad happening presently you think?
That is for me the most important, to live presently, that be the gift from Father and Son for us all, I think seeing other things can separate "us" , Not God from this love and mercy given us through Son as risen for us to love in the same mercy and truth of love given us to do willingly is freedom from stress, so one, anyone can rest in the love and mercy alone given to do as is done by Son, thanks. It is done for us to be new by Faith trust to God alone in risen Son for us, at least me.
Anything else is a distraction from to get saved and not be at rest in this amazing gift
I put past behind me and see to live daily in trust to God Father and Son, knowing not how, just knowing someway, somehow Father will come through and save us, as promised. That which Daddy has done for us all by Son, that is done for us to believe it or not in his being risen or not. No more pride to ride, or guilt to condemn, that is still here in this world for now.
Thanks this is just how I see it today, trusting you to get, be given whatever you are after to get, hoping this is new life to rest in and see truth over many errors in this world we are in and not of any more
Love to all is the call I see as a gift from God loving us unconditionally, which got me to change willingly

 

[Ballaurena]

I can't imagine counting emotional responses as proof against scripture being literal. Yiikes at any dream, prophetic or otherwise, being used to discount or distort what the book of Revelations is saying!

As a follower of Christ, my purpose here is the edification and growth of the body, not dwelling on fruitless disagreements. Since you cannot receive my input as a member of the body of Christ, then there is no point in our corresponding. I will thus be activating the 'ignore' function from here on out unless God shows me to do otherwise.

 

[homwardbound]

I disagree on the grounds that it gives you the tone of what is coming even if it isn't literal. I say this because I have had prophetic dreams where the emotion of the dream was very precisely replicated in the physical at a later time though all the details were different. For example, I dreamed about a helpless child with a deadly disese. A few days later I was watching a football game when a player took a bad hit and was knocked out to the point that he might be paralyzed. I realized later that my emotional response was exactly the same as the dream even though the events were very different.

I am elated you care, that is a gift from Father to you. Please watch out for emotions to lead you over truth for you in risen Son to you?
Thanks, as I see a train has an engine and a caboose. the Engine is truth and leads, the Caboose is emotion and follows truth (The engine in this analogy)
If a caboose leads any train it is headed for a train wreck, right?
God leads, all else is vanity, (Ecclesiastes) me, trusting God in leading you and me as well as all others too willingly thank you
Willing, is the key I see that opens the door in reality for me at least

 

[Ballaurena]

I am elated you care, that is a gift from Father to you. Please watch out for emotions to lead you over truth for you in risen Son to you?
Thanks, as I see a train has an engine and a caboose. the Engine is truth and leads, the Caboose is emotion and follows truth (The engine in this analogy)
If a caboose leads any train it is headed for a train wreck, right?
God leads, all else is vanity, (Ecclesiastes) me, trusting God in leading you and me as well as all others too willingly thank you
Willing, is the key I see that opens the door in reality for me at least

Friend,

While I have certainly seen the error that you warn me against, please understand that I wasn't talking AT ALL about coming to conclusions about doctrine from the emotions of the situation themselves. Rather I was relaying something where the emotions were the subject, but the conclusion was based on the logic of what God did with them - giving me a preview of emotions as precise as dreaming the winning lotter numbers (though we don't begin to have words to describe the intricacy of emotions the way we can definitively tell someone the digits of a number).

That said, God actually gave me a pretty strong lesson a while back on the value of listening to emotions and not just logic since I had gotten too far off in the logic ditch. Among other things, He taught me that the mind and the heart are two sides of the same coin, and that both have valuable and important input that needs to be considered in order to find the truth. For example, Holy Spirit often speaks through emotions, such as in the spiritual fruits of joy and peace.

Knowing my own journey and things I have seen in the church and world, please be warned that there may be an unconscious acceptance in Christianity of Enlightenment-era intellectualism (really a type of naturalism) that God never intended. That isn't to say that we aren't supposed to use our minds - God tells us to worship with both our heart and mind (Matt. 22:37).

Verses for consideration:

Matthew 22:37
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'"

Much in 1 Corinthians from 1:18 to the end of chapter 2. Here is a shortcut.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

 

[glf]

As a follower of Christ, my purpose here is the edification and growth of the body, not dwelling on fruitless disagreements. Since you cannot receive my input as a member of the body of Christ, then there is no point in our corresponding. I will thus be activating the 'ignore' function from here on out unless God shows me to do otherwise.

Im not saying your input isn't of the Lord, just this particular comment regarding emotional responce and scripture...
The Lord bless you and make his face to shine upon you! Each member of the body has been given illumination by the Holy Spirit to edify the body of Christ. I pray the Lord use you to edify and encourage the brethern and minister Jesus to the lost in Jesus' name.

 

[homwardbound]

Friend,

While I have certainly seen the error that you warn me against, please understand that I wasn't talking AT ALL about coming to conclusions about doctrine from the emotions of the situation themselves. Rather I was relaying something where the emotions were the subject, but the conclusion was based on the logic of what God did with them - giving me a preview of emotions as precise as dreaming the winning lotter numbers (though we don't begin to have words to describe the intricacy of emotions the way we can definitively tell someone the digits of a number).

That said, God actually gave me a pretty strong lesson a while back on the value of listening to emotions and not just logic since I had gotten too far off in the logic ditch. Among other things, He taught me that the mind and the heart are two sides of the same coin, and that both have valuable and important input that needs to be considered in order to find the truth. For example, Holy Spirit often speaks through emotions, such as in the spiritual fruits of joy and peace.

Knowing my own journey and things I have seen in the church and world, please be warned that there may be an unconscious acceptance in Christianity of Enlightenment-era intellectualism (really a type of naturalism) that God never intended. That isn't to say that we aren't supposed to use our minds - God tells us to worship with both our heart and mind (Matt. 22:37).

Verses for consideration:

Matthew 22:37
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'"

Much in 1 Corinthians from 1:18 to the end of chapter 2. Here is a shortcut.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

thank you, I was just expounding as well, awesome to have a sister in the Lord and freed from under Law, is what I see thanks for the post in response I got it

 

[Adstar]

Do you believe Revelation is literal, physical, spiritual, something in between, or just another completely different perspective! I would love to see your thoughts and your logic behind them.

There is so much revelation in the Book of Revelation one hardly knows where to start.. People could write books larger the the book of Revelation dealing with the revelations in it..

Oh and we are to always seek Gods thoughts and Gods logic behind them..

 

[JesusIsSovereign]

Its not much of a Revelation if it isn't literal!

Where's your logic? You know, many people are going to disagree with you because they can read the words in Revelation. Also, they know what Revelation means.

 

[JesusIsSovereign]

I believe it is largely metaphorical and most of it future, though some is past, some may be starting to get fulfilled, and some of it is ongoing (ex. The letters to the churches). There is a compelling case for the stars being about the state of the constellations when Jesus was born. For more on that check out "The Star of Bethlehem" which was also recently referenced on the 700 club for Christmas.

I agree with you mostly. But I do believe that at least some of it was happening during the writer's time. Revelation 1:9. Thanks!

 

[JesusIsSovereign]

There is so much revelation in the Book of Revelation one hardly knows where to start.. People could write books larger the the book of Revelation dealing with the revelations in it..

Oh and we are to always seek Gods thoughts and Gods logic behind them..

And people have written so many books on it. Personally, I believe it is symbolic.

 

[JesusIsSovereign]

Virtually everything in the old testament is allegorical. It's only purpose is to point to Christ. All shadows/types in the OT, of which there are many, are fulfilled in Christ.

Revelation is extremely symbolic

byw literal can mean physical or spiritual depending on what the author intended. For example, Christ said only those who drink his blood and eat his flesh have life in them. Is that literally true? Doth cannibalism bringeth forth eternal life? Of course not. His speech is allegorically true pointing to a spiritual reality, not physically true. but it is literally the truth

I completely agree. Also, John even says in Revelation that he turned and saw a voice. Can a voice be seen?

 

[rrcn]

I completely agree. Also, John even says in Revelation that he turned and saw a voice. Can a voice be seen?

There were a few more verses that clarify that he was speaking to our high priest, Jesus.

[Rev 1:10, 12-13, 15 KJV] 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, ... 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. ... 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

There is another references which is also pertinent:
In verse 1:10 John describing the beginning of the vision said:
I was in the Spirit on , the Lord’s day . . .

What day of the week was this? Is I possible to tell? Since the papal apostasy had not yet declared Sunday ( they called the venerable day of the sun) the Lord’s day I believe that it can be deduced that this was the seventh day Sabbath of the creator who is coincidentally Jesus himself.

Jesus said:
[Mar 2:27-28 KJV] 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

There is another references which is also pertinent:
In verse 1:10 John describing the beginning of the vision said:
I was in the Spirit on , the Lord’s day . . .

What day of the week was this? Is I possible to tell? Since the papal apostasy had not yet declared Sunday ( they called the venerable day of the sun) the Lord’s day I believe that it can be deduced that this was the seventh day Sabbath of the creator who is coincidentally Jesus himself.

The context of Revelation is the day of the lord, ie day of the lord's wrath, so it's reasonable to think that is what John was referring to. The lord's day and the day of the lord say the exact same thing, just different syntax

 

[rrcn]

The context of Revelation is the day of the lord, ie day of the lord's wrath, so it's reasonable to think that is what John was referring to. The lord's day and the day of the lord say the exact same thing, just different syntax

The midst of the seven candlesticks indicate his role was as the high priest in the heavenly temple. The day of r wrath will apply to the time when Christ is no longer pleading his blood on the behalf of sinners and instead is acting as their judge.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The midst of the seven candlesticks indicate his role was as the high priest in the heavenly temple. The day of r wrath will apply to the time when Christ is no longer pleading his blood on the behalf of sinners and instead is acting as their judge.

Which is most of what the Revelation is about. John was seeing in the spirit that day and the events leading up to it. It's even mentioned in the book.

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:14​

 

[Beckworth]

I don’t know if there is anyone who understands EVERYTHING in the book of Revelation. I know I certainly do not. I do believe the book uses many “symbols”. The main theme of the book is VICTORY, of Christ and his servants over Satan and his servants. Maybe this is why the Spirit says “Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy and KEEP those things that are written in it…” (1:3) That includes us who are reading it today. We all know about the “beatitudes” that Christ gave in the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5), but there are also 7 beatitudes “ in the book of Revelation. (1:3, 14:13, 16:15, 19:9, 20:6,22:7, 22:14). The main thing to remember is that this book is meant to be a “BLESSING” to us who read it.

Many of the prophecies in both the Old Testament and New Testament have multiple meanings: a primary meaning for the people of that day and time, usually physical, and a secondary meaning that is usually spiritual and futuristic in nature. So, some if not all, prophecies have a physical meaning and a spiritual meaning. To illustrate this, many people believe practically everything in the book was written for the people living in the first century., and that it is all a prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem that took place in AD 70 by the Romans. While I believe the people of that day could certainly “read” that into the book and it would benefit them, I keep remembering chapter 1 verse 3 that says it is for me, too. And I am not the least bit concerned about what happened in AD 70. To them it had a physical meaning, but to me it has a spiritual meaning and describes further things like the beautiful city in Heaven and the horrors of hell. Chapters 21-22. The victory portrayed in chapters 19-20 of Christ on the white horse defeating Satan forever is encouragement for Me and you today. It is a timeless book that relates to every generation and culture. It has something for everyone who reads it.

The letters to the churches are certainly beneficial to us today as we see the problems they had are still prevalent today. In churches. God gives punishments and rewards to them which shows us exactly God’s nature and also what He will do fir us or to us depending if we listen and obey Him. I love chapter 5 which shows us The throne scene in heaven. We don’t have many glimpses of what’s there. One interesting point here is that we see what happened after Jesus ascended into heaven in Acts 1. This chapter is a continuation of the story that ended with Jesus going back to heaven. Mark 16:19. Amazing!!!

The 7 seals seem to represent things that happen on the earth. The white horse with Christ conquering, the red horse that took “ peace from the earth and people killing one another” could be wars and persecutions. The black horse with “a pair of scales in his hand” representing “injustice”. He tells us that the pale horse represents death and hades. The seals end with another scene of judgement chapter 6 and heaven chapter 7. This causes some scholars to think that the book covers the gospel dispensation over and over again throughout the book.

The 7 trumpets are “warnings”. Each one represents a disaster that happens to people on earth; as the angel says, “Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabitants of the earth.” 8:13. These plagues had a purpose. Verses 20 and 21 says, “the rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues DID NOT REPENT.” ( of their idolatry), “And THEY DID NOT REPENT of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.” We see God sending plagues to try to get people on earth to repent—much like He did to The Egyptians in Exodus.

Chapter 12, some believe, is the beginning of the gospel dispensation all over again; this time with the coming of Christ ( the male child) and the church which had to go into hiding because of persecution (verse 6) by Satan, the great fiery red dragon. He makes war with her “offspring”verse 17, and they are the ones “who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

Chapter 13 we see two beasts—one coming out of the earth and one coming out of the sea. These are symbolic. They both get their power and authority from Satan. Verse 2. The first beast, out of the earth, seems to represent anti-Christian governments. He “speaks great things and blasphemes against God, His name, his tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven” verse 6. He makes war with Christians. He has authority over every tribe, tongue, and nation. He leads people into captivity and he kills with the sword. The second beast cones out of the earth and he seems to represent anti-Christian religions. He has power from the dragon to perform great signs ( miracles) by which he deceived people on the earth. Verse 14. He causes religious persecution against those who will not worship the beast. He is the one who puts the mark of the beast on people who worship the beast.

The book ends with judgement ( again) and vivid pictures of heaven and hell. I love the last 2 chapters that tell of the beautiful city of God for those found in the book of life. It ends with a warning—not to tamper with or deal deceitfully with God’s words or His book.

“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO READ…AND KEEP THE WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY.”

 

[Hakawaka]

Do you believe Revelation is literal, physical, spiritual, something in between, or just another completely different perspective! I would love to see your thoughts and your logic behind them.

Who knows honestly.

I have looked into historicism, preterism, futurism and all have their problems and upsides.

Historicism sounds great, history progressively being fulfilled, the only issue is that they don't seem to agree on what was fulfilled when. For example the trumpet judgment about 3rd of the ships sinking and here is what John Gill has to say about it:

"and the third part of the ships were destroyed; by which may be designed either the cities and towns within such a part of the Roman jurisdiction, which were burnt or plundered by them; or their goods and effects, which they pillaged, and carried off the wealth and riches of the people, even all their substance, as Austin (p) and Jerom (q), who lived in those times, affirm. "

Now lets see what verse are we talking about: Rev 8:9 "And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

You tell me friend, is John Gill correct? He interprets grass burning as common folks dying, 3rd of trees burning as people of higher rank dying. I am all for symbolism, the bible is full of symbols, my issue is: I feel like John Gill (and many many other commentators) make up these symbols as they go along.

Usually the Bible explains its symbols, in Rev 1 we are told the stars are angels, candlesticks are churches, waters John saw in Rev 17 are said to be many peoples. Many examples of this in Daniel and in the dreams of Joseph too. The Bible always gives an explanation of the symbol, if you interpret the book of Revelation in light of these I wouldnt (and you shouldnt either) call you someone who "allegorizes" or "spiritualizes" away scripture. Thats biblical! But if I read "3rd of trees burning" and say its talking about men of high rank dying, you should question "Where did you get this idea that trees represent high ranking people?"

 

[Hakawaka]

Who knows honestly.

I have looked into historicism, preterism, futurism and all have their problems and upsides.

Historicism sounds great, history progressively being fulfilled, the only issue is that they don't seem to agree on what was fulfilled when. For example the trumpet judgment about 3rd of the ships sinking and here is what John Gill has to say about it:

"and the third part of the ships were destroyed; by which may be designed either the cities and towns within such a part of the Roman jurisdiction, which were burnt or plundered by them; or their goods and effects, which they pillaged, and carried off the wealth and riches of the people, even all their substance, as Austin (p) and Jerom (q), who lived in those times, affirm. "

Now lets see what verse are we talking about: Rev 8:9 "And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

You tell me friend, is John Gill correct? He interprets grass burning as common folks dying, 3rd of trees burning as people of higher rank dying. I am all for symbolism, the bible is full of symbols, my issue is: I feel like John Gill (and many many other commentators) make up these symbols as they go along.

Usually the Bible explains its symbols, in Rev 1 we are told the stars are angels, candlesticks are churches, waters John saw in Rev 17 are said to be many peoples. Many examples of this in Daniel and in the dreams of Joseph too. The Bible always gives an explanation of the symbol, if you interpret the book of Revelation in light of these I wouldnt (and you shouldnt either) call you someone who "allegorizes" or "spiritualizes" away scripture. Thats biblical! But if I read "3rd of trees burning" and say its talking about men of high rank dying, you should question "Where did you get this idea that trees represent high ranking people?"

Just to poke John Gill a bit more, nothing personally against the man but I just need to say this as well. Based on what I wrote here, I said that they like to make up the symbols. Well the situation gets worse, these guys not only make up the symbols they also CHANGE THEM on the fly. So sea can mean roman people, fish can mean roman people, but then all of a sudden sea means doctrines of the Pope?

Proof:
John Gill on Rev 8:8 "the "sea" into which this was cast may signify the great number of people and nations within its jurisdiction which suffered, and were thrown into confusion at this time"

Here the sea is peoples, which is ok, I would say its potentially real actual sea here, but I am fine with calling it peoples atleast waters are a symbol for peoples in the book of Revelation.

Now lets go to another verse about sea. John Gill on Rev 16:3:

"And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea,.... Not literally; and so does not design the stagnation of it, which it is thought will be before the general conflagration; see Amos 7:4 nor is it to be understood of the sea of this world, and the men of it, who are like a troubled sea; but rather of Popish doctrines and councils, which are a sea of errors, and will now be confuted and put an end to "

So basically this feels like everything is about Rome, the Pope, and they will say whatever they can to make it about the Pope, Rome and their situation during the reformation. I am not catholic so dont think I am defending their errors, I am just saying, long story short: Dont trust a lot of these commentaries.

Historicism's fault is that it disagrees on what event happened when, the day to year theory in Revelation has no foundation, nor in Daniel 12, as it says "blessed is the one who waits to 1335 days", youre not gonna wait 1335 YEARS. The benefit of this view is that since history is slowly being fulfilled, every generation has something being fulfilled, instead of it all being future or past.

Preterism's fault is that everything is fulfilled and while historicists shove everything to rome and pope, these guys shove everything into AD70, its all AD70. "Oh seventh trumpet sounded and ALL KINGDOMS of the world have become the kingdoms of Christ?..... AD70" The benefit of this view is that it does make compelling arguments regarding Nero and 666 and it fits all the "soon, now, quickly" passages in Rev and elsewhere in the NT.

Futurism's fault is that there is so much guess work and a thousand and one ideas as to who or what is the second and first beast. Is it United nations, America, is it a singular man? The "Pin the tail on the antichrist" game is really sad to look at. The benefit of this view is that it takes the book (usually) at face value, so when it says 3rd of sea turns to blood it means 3rd turns to blood, whether in the globe as a whole or in the kingdom of the beast.

Idealism's fault is that the book has no purpose and should never be read.