Understanding God’s election

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I

Inquisitor

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Rufus said:
Then how do you explain this passage:

Heb 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened , who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace?
NIV

Scripture provides two stellar examples of people who are described in this passage: King Saul and Judas. God revealed a great deal to both of these people, yet both of them fell away, proving their faith was spurious to begin with. In both cases, there is no account in scripture for either of these two being brought back to repentance!
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Surely a person cannot have the Holy Spirit and fall away?

You need to explain this phenomenon.
Rufus said:
The much better question would have been what did Jesus mean by "he takes away"? Also, you ignore the context once again. If someone doesn't bear fruit, then it's because they did not remain in Christ (v.4). And whoever does not remain in Christ was never a true believer to begin with.
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That is a contradiction.

You can't be in Christ unless your one of the elect.

These branches were in the vine, they were in Christ before they were severed.

It is impossible for the unbeliever to be a believer at any stage.
 
R

rogerg

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Inquisitor said:
These branches were in the vine, they were in Christ before they were severed.
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Certain of the non-elect can be in Christ for a while but cannot remain in Christ - only the elect can. The elect remain because God alone placed them there - the others, not. Many people of their own human intellect, volition and strength, for a time believe in, and attach themselves to, Christ, but eventually will fall away because God is not in them, to give them the water of the gospel. He does not do so for everyone - only for His elect. The others without water, become withered and are removed. Those that He placed there, He also makes into His disciples.
 
I

Inquisitor

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rogerg said:
Certain of the non-elect can be in Christ for a while but cannot remain in Christ - only the elect can. The elect remain because God alone placed them there - the others, not. Many people of their own human intellect, volition and strength, for a time believe in, and attach themselves to, Christ, but eventually will fall away because God is not in them, to give them the water of the gospel. He does not do so for everyone - only for His elect. The others without water, become withered and are removed. Those that He placed there, He also makes into His disciples.
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This is your claim.

"Many people of their own human intellect, volition and strength, for a time believe in, and attach themselves to, Christ."

I thought that only the elect can believe in Jesus?

No one is going to declare Jesus as Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit.

Only the elect have the Holy Spirit.
 
L

lrs68

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Cameron143 said:
It is the fallen natural man's default position to reject natural revelation because the things of God are foolishness to him. Neither is his disposition to seek after God. This is why God must draw and enlighten him to begin with.
In Romans 1, is anyone pursuing God?
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How many people do you know in your immediate contacts between those that you are related to, those that are friends, those who you just meet often, those you just meet very little that say God is mean (Old Testament reference), they're a good person, or some other excuses along the line?

I look at Romans 1 the same way.
I believe those people (because it plainly claims they know who God is but refuse to honor Him) are people who made excuses like God is bad and a murderer or that they're a good person etc.

In other words, I think people know about God on a level more than we give credit for but they have excuses why they don't need a God to be a good person and whatever else excuse they use.
 
R

Rufus

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Inquisitor said:
This is your claim.

"Many people of their own human intellect, volition and strength, for a time believe in, and attach themselves to, Christ."

I thought that only the elect can believe in Jesus?

No one is going to declare Jesus as Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit.

Only the elect have the Holy Spirit.
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Since you thought this, then this means you don't understand the parable of the Four Soils. Only one kind of heart ("soil") remained in Christ and bore fruit.
 
R

rogerg

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Inquisitor said:
This is your claim.

"Many people of their own human intellect, volition and strength, for a time believe in, and attach themselves to, Christ."

I thought that only the elect can believe in Jesus?

No one is going to declare Jesus as Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit.

Only the elect have the Holy Spirit.
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No. Many people can believe for a while and yet, fall away - they do not have the Holy Spirit. Many declare Christ, but
do not declare the true Christ - the Savior, Christ.

[Luk 21:8 KJV]
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

[Luk 8:13-14 KJV]
13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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lrs68 said:
How many people do you know in your immediate contacts between those that you are related to, those that are friends, those who you just meet often, those you just meet very little that say God is mean (Old Testament reference), they're a good person, or some other excuses along the line?

I look at Romans 1 the same way.
I believe those people (because it plainly claims they know who God is but refuse to honor Him) are people who made excuses like God is bad and a murderer or that they're a good person etc.

In other words, I think people know about God on a level more than we give credit for but they have excuses why they don't need a God to be a good person and whatever else excuse they use.
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The point is, they reject Him, do not honor Him.

Jesus said that He only did what He saw the Father doing. What exactly did He see the Father doing? What do you see the Father doing and join Him in doing?
 
R

Rufus

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lrs68 said:
How do we know 100% of those awakened do not reject God because nowhere is that anywhere in the Bible?
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We know because God's grace is effectual and no plan or insight or wisdom of man can can ever succeed against the Lord (Prov 21:30).
 
M

Mitspa

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Inquisitor said:
This is your claim.

"Many people of their own human intellect, volition and strength, for a time believe in, and attach themselves to, Christ."

I thought that only the elect can believe in Jesus?

No one is going to declare Jesus as Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit.

Only the elect have the Holy Spirit.
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Some of the most evil people ever known, have made this declaration. I do not see the verbal declaration as evidence of the Holy Spirit working in these people. In fact the whole "angel of light" trick, the devil plays, seems to be able to put on a really good show of godliness that hides much evil.
 
L

lrs68

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Rufus said:
We know because God's grace is effectual and no plan or insight or wisdom of man can can ever succeed against the Lord (Prov 21:30).
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You know this because your man made doctrine tells you so and that's fact because it's not biblical nor found in the Bible.
 
L

lrs68

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Cameron143 said:
The point is, they reject Him, do not honor Him.

Jesus said that He only did what He saw the Father doing. What exactly did He see the Father doing? What do you see the Father doing and join Him in doing?
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I agree they reject God. I think we actually do see things similar just explain it differently. I believe you know that everyone awakened do not always choose to use their belief to have God be their God.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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lrs68 said:
I agree they reject God. I think we actually do see things similar just explain it differently. I believe you know that everyone awakened do not always choose to use their belief to have God be their God.
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We do agree on many things.

Care to answer my questions?
 
R

Rufus

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Inquisitor said:
Surely a person cannot have the Holy Spirit and fall away?

You need to explain this phenomenon.


That is a contradiction.

You can't be in Christ unless your one of the elect.

These branches were in the vine, they were in Christ before they were severed.

It is impossible for the unbeliever to be a believer at any stage.
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No, it most emphatically is not! I already provided two biblical examples: Saul and Judas. You really don't understand the Parable of the Four Soils either.

The bible teaches that there is such a thing as spurious faith. Genuine, God-given faith is planted and rooted in an elect person's heart. Whereas spurious faith is illegitimate and false and actually deceitful! Look how many "disciples" of Christ followed" him after he fed thousands in John 6! But after they chased after them with their impure, ulterior motives and Jesus lectured them about the state of their heart, most of them walked away! Those with fake, self-generated faith will always fall away! Those mentioned in Mat 7:23 are all false, highly self-deceived, phony believers.

Also, re the Holy Spirit, He was given and taken away under the Old Covenant economy. The Spirit was first taken from Adam because he died spiritually on the day he ate of the fruit. Then God withdrew both his Spirit and love from Saul due to his wickedness. King David even prayed for God to not take his Spirit away from him (Ps 51:11). Likewise, Judas was still under the OC dispensation which didn't formally end until the Cross, so the Spirit was taken from him as well.
 
R

Rufus

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lrs68 said:
You know this because your man made doctrine tells you so and that's fact because it's not biblical nor found in the Bible.
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Well then...if Prov 21:30 doesn't teach the sovereignty and omnipotent power of God, then no text does! It's your man-made theology that has taught you that God's will can indeed be thwarted, even though nothing is impossible for God (Lk 1:37)!
 
L

lrs68

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Rufus said:
Well then...if Prov 21:30 doesn't teach the sovereignty and omnipotent power of God, then no text does! It's your man-made theology that has taught you that God's will can indeed be thwarted, even though nothing is impossible for God (Lk 1:37)!
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That verse doesn't say awakened always 100% end up as believers in God. It merely is like Ephesians it just explains a process but it never claims everyone fulfills the process.
 
I

Inquisitor

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rogerg said:
No. Many people can believe for a while and yet, fall away - they do not have the Holy Spirit. Many declare Christ, but
do not declare the true Christ - the Savior, Christ.

[Luk 21:8 KJV]
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

[Luk 8:13-14 KJV]
13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Click to expand...
According to the doctrine of total depravity (the first of the five points of Calvinism), the influence of sin has
so inhibited the individual's volition that no one is willing or able to come to or follow God apart from God first
regenerating the person's soul to give them the ability to love him and take part in the salvation process.
Hence, God's choice in election is, and can only be based solely on, God's own independent and sovereign will
and [not] upon the foreseen actions of man. (wiki)

A person cannot believe in Jesus, "is willing or able to come to or follow God", unless God first acts.

It is God's will that we believe in Jesus.

A reprobate is unable to believe in Jesus.
 
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