Understanding God’s election

[Inquisitor]

No, it most emphatically is not! I already provided two biblical examples: Saul and Judas. You really don't understand the Parable of the Four Soils either.

The bible teaches that there is such a thing as spurious faith. Genuine, God-given faith is planted and rooted in an elect person's heart. Whereas spurious faith is illegitimate and false and actually deceitful! Look how many "disciples" of Christ followed" him after he fed thousands in John 6! But after they chased after them with their impure, ulterior motives and Jesus lectured them about the state of their heart, most of them walked away! Those with fake, self-generated faith will always fall away! Those mentioned in Mat 7:23 are all false, highly self-deceived, phony believers.

Also, re the Holy Spirit, He was given and taken away under the Old Covenant economy. The Spirit was first taken from Adam because he died spiritually on the day he ate of the fruit. Then God withdrew both his Spirit and love from Saul due to his wickedness. King David even prayed for God to not take his Spirit away from him (Ps 51:11). Likewise, Judas was still under the OC dispensation which didn't formally end until the Cross, so the Spirit was taken from him as well.

No one can believe in Jesus unless it is God's will, certainly not the reprobate.

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life,
and I will raise him up on the last day.

Your claiming that someone can believe in Jesus and that is not God's sovereign will?

 

[Inquisitor]

I already did. Jesus did always what He saw the Father doing. What did He see the Father doing? What do you see the Father doing and join Him in doing?

The knowledge of the Father is gained by looking at Jesus Christ.

No one knows the Father and no one has ever known the Father, except Jesus.

 

[Inquisitor]

Some of the most evil people ever known, have made this declaration. I do not see the verbal declaration as evidence of the Holy Spirit working in these people. In fact the whole "angel of light" trick, the devil plays, seems to be able to put on a really good show of godliness that hides much evil.

You may need a pair of reading glasses.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!”
and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.

Do you accept this teaching?

 

[Cameron143]

The knowledge of the Father is gained by looking at Jesus Christ.

No one knows the Father and no one has ever known the Father, except Jesus.

This doesn't answer my question.

 

[Rufus]

That verse doesn't say awakened always 100% end up as believers in God. It merely is like Ephesians it just explains a process but it never claims everyone fulfills the process.

But it does teach God's omnipotence. And Prov 21:30 teaches man's IMPOTENCE! In your theology, I guess God is not all-powerful, whereas man is. How would you answer this biblical question:

Isa 50:2
2 When I came, why was there no one?
When I called, why was there no one to answer?
Was my arm too short to ransom you?
Do I lack the strength to rescue you?
NIV

Or what about this passage:

Job 42:1-2
42:1 Then Job replied to the LORD:

2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.
NIV

I think you and I could be worshiping two different Gods.

Provide me with a passage that says that God or His Christ are merely possible or potential Saviors.

 

[Inquisitor]

Certain of the non-elect can be in Christ for a while but cannot remain in Christ - only the elect can. The elect remain because God alone placed them there - the others, not. Many people of their own human intellect, volition and strength, for a time believe in, and attach themselves to, Christ, but eventually will fall away because God is not in them, to give them the water of the gospel. He does not do so for everyone - only for His elect. The others without water, become withered and are removed. Those that He placed there, He also makes into His disciples.

Are you telling me that it is God's will that someone believes in Jesus.

Then it is also God's will that this believer will not believe in Jesus after some time.

Your not attempting to claim that this is God's will?

God's sovereign will is that someone falls away?

 

[Inquisitor]

This doesn't answer my question.

Can you repeat your question please.

 

[Cameron143]

Can you repeat your question please.

Sure. Jesus did always what He saw the Father doing. What did Jesus see the Father doing? What do you see the Father doing and join Him in doing?

 

[Rufus]

You may need a pair of reading glasses.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!”
and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.

Do you accept this teaching?

I do! So, what is point, exactly?

And for your info, the false, utterly self-deceived believers in Mat 7:23 right up to the end called Jesus, "Lord, Lord...". That should tell you something! They obviously never spoke "in the Spirit of God"! They spoke according to the flesh.

 

[Inquisitor]

Sure. Jesus did always what He saw the Father doing. What did Jesus see the Father doing? What do you see the Father doing and join Him in doing?

Only what I see Jesus doing.

John 14:8-9
Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long,
and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

The Father has never spoken to us.

The Father has never been seen by us.

We have never known the Father.

The Word is the audible, visual, knowable, image of the invisible God.

 

[Inquisitor]

I do! So, what is point, exactly?

And for your info, the false, utterly self-deceived believers in Mat 7:23 right up to the end called Jesus, "Lord, Lord...". That should tell you something! They obviously never spoke "in the Spirit of God"! They spoke according to the flesh.

This is your claim.

That someone can believe in Jesus through an act of self will, can say Jesus is Lord?

They might believe in Jesus for fifty years then fall away.

Could be your mother or sister who believes in Jesus but are not one of the elect.

No one says "Jesus is Lord" without the Spirit of God.

 

[lrs68]

I already did. Jesus did always what He saw the Father doing. What did He see the Father doing? What do you see the Father doing and join Him in doing?

Worked on the Sabbat.
Healed the sick.



On a side note, the Great Commission but that's not associated to the Father but if Jesus did it we should do it.

 

[Cameron143]

Only what I see Jesus doing.

John 14:8-9
Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long,
and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

The Father has never spoken to us.

The Father has never been seen by us.

We have never known the Father.

The Word is the audible, visual, knowable, image of the invisible God.

While this is demonstrably false according to John 14 and the fact that Jesus said that the Father had revealed truth to Peter, are you saying Jesus didn't see the Father working?

 

[Mitspa]

You may need a pair of reading glasses.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!”
and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.

Do you accept this teaching?

I just watched a Documentary about this man who started a cult in the "name" of the Lord. The most evil of men and used the Lords name in nearly every evil work he promoted, including the rape of children. The guy used the bible and biblical language as well as the devil. "Jesus is Lord" was as easy for him to say "hello", a completely wicked man!
As far as the passage goes, I haven't looked at the Greek or other translations, (which I intend to do) but I wouldn't be surprised if there is another honest way to read that passage and still maintain the truth and intent of what Paul was saying to those who knew the Holy Spirit and those things related to speaking under His power.

 

[lrs68]

But it does teach God's omnipotence. And Prov 21:30 teaches man's IMPOTENCE! In your theology, I guess God is not all-powerful, whereas man is. How would you answer this biblical question:

Isa 50:2
2 When I came, why was there no one?
When I called, why was there no one to answer?
Was my arm too short to ransom you?
Do I lack the strength to rescue you?
NIV

Or what about this passage:

Job 42:1-2
42:1 Then Job replied to the LORD:

2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.
NIV

I think you and I could be worshiping two different Gods.

Provide me with a passage that says that God or His Christ are merely possible or potential Saviors.

You are throwing God into the position of forcing people to serve Him when we see there's a choice after being awakened to use faith to believe.

 

[rogerg]

According to the doctrine of total depravity (the first of the five points of Calvinism), the influence of sin has
so inhibited the individual's volition that no one is willing or able to come to or follow God apart from God first
regenerating the person's soul to give them the ability to love him and take part in the salvation process.
Hence, God's choice in election is, and can only be based solely on, God's own independent and sovereign will
and [not] upon the foreseen actions of man. (wiki)

A person cannot believe in Jesus, "is willing or able to come to or follow God", unless God first acts.

It is God's will that we believe in Jesus.

A reprobate is unable to believe in Jesus.

We can see in the below verses that for those given true faith by God, it is guaranteed that they never fall away from it, because it is God who makes Himself guarantor that they don't - it is therefore impossible for them to fall away as kept by God. Consequently, those who do fall away never had a true faith. Otherwise, God's statement that the inheritance " fadeth not away" would be wrong, because faith would fade away but faith is guaranteed as a part of the inheritance. There is a faith that is the construct of the processes of the human mind, not the heart, so, should the mind change regarding Christ, so will the faith, because, as we are told, their faith has no root in them.


[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[rogerg]

Are you telling me that it is God's will that someone believes in Jesus.

Then it is also God's will that this believer will not believe in Jesus after some time.

Your not attempting to claim that this is God's will?

God's sovereign will is that someone falls away?

See my post above #8636

 

[Cameron143]

Worked on the Sabbat.
Healed the sick.



On a side note, the Great Commission but that's not associated to the Father but if Jesus did it we should do it.

He did way more than these 2 things. But it's a broad question, so I'll narrow it some. What compelled Jesus to go to the house of Zaccheus? How did He know the will of the Father was to do so? Direct revelation? He understood Zaccheus' act of climbing the tree as an act of faith? An angel was sitting on the tree limb next to Zaccheus?
What compelled Jesus in the midst of crowds to stop at intervals to perform miracles?
How did He know to heal everyone at times but only a few at other times?
This all against the backdrop of Jesus only doing what He saw the Father doing.

 

[lrs68]

He did way more than these 2 things. But it's a broad question, so I'll narrow it some. What compelled Jesus to go to the house of Zaccheus? How did He know the will of the Father was to do so? Direct revelation? He understood Zaccheus' act of climbing the tree as an act of faith? An angel was sitting on the tree limb next to Zaccheus?
What compelled Jesus in the midst of crowds to stop at intervals to perform miracles?
How did He know to heal everyone at times but only a few at other times?
This all against the backdrop of Jesus only doing what He saw the Father doing.

If you present it the way this post reads then someone could say Jesus did as He saw the Father doing even when crying to the Father before His Crucifixion or repeating the Father while upon the Cross. If we take it all the way with Jesus own words that He only does what He sees the Father doing.

 

[Cameron143]

If you present it the way this post reads then someone could say Jesus did as He saw the Father doing even when crying to the Father before His Crucifixion or repeating the Father while upon the Cross. If we take it all the way with Jesus own words that He only does what He sees the Father doing.

You've done everything you can to not answer the question. Appreciate the discussion.
BTW...Jesus saw the Father pouring out judgment upon Him in both the instances you spoke of.