Death Penalty

[Ramon]

It's your soul you should be concerned about not the loss of your flesh.
Before you tell me of the Evil in my heart check out Leviticous or Deuteronomy the Lord himself gave Moses the Law and The Law is what Governs the Land!
If we do not then we allow the land to fill with cutthroats and murderers.
Moses himself practiced capital punishment and you tell me I am no Christian.
They are in the chair for committing murder not robbing a bank
If I kill someone premeditated 1st degree I would expect nothing less
I don't claim righteousness nor confidence in it
If you spill the blood of man so shall your blood be spilt

Anyone who harbors anger in his heart, is also a murderer in his heart. Out of the abundance of IT the mouth, speaks. An evil man out of a wicked heart speaks evil things, and a just man out of a humble heart speaks uprightly.

Moses did not practice capital punishment. God destroyed those people for their lust. God will judge all men, not Moses.

Again, no Christian should be in favor of capital punishment. A soul is the life of the person, and it is not God's will that any perish. I would pray that this soul repents before he is to die. And no one can keep him out of the kingdom of God, if he confesses his sins to the one who will INDEED show him mercy. Even as that thief on his cross.

May Jesus bless you.

 

[DiscipleWilliam]

You guarantee? How do you guarantee? I want my money back, because the fact that over 200 people have been executed in Texas in the last what, 2 years (?) proves that it is NOT a deterrent.

In fact, the wages of sin are death, and yet each and every one of us continues to sin. So much for your theory.

In fact, those who commit crimes punishable with death almost always fall into one of two categories: Either they do not believe that what they are doing is wrong, or they do recognize it, and they don't care. Having the death penalty will not stop someone if he or she doesn't believe what he's doing is wrong. It may serve as a deterrent for the second, but they are few and far between.



Can you quote your biblical support for this?



You honestly think one innocent man's death is worth it? I would not call that a hasty generalization at all.

Evidence from the Old Testament
​

Ex. 21:12- “Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death."

Genesis 9:6- “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image."

Leviticus 24:17-23- 17“Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death. 18Whoever takes an animal’s life shall make it good, life for life. 19If anyone injures his neighbor, as he has done it shall be done to him, 20fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; whatever injury he has given a person shall be given to him. 21Whoever kills an animal shall make it good, and whoever kills a person shall be put to death. 22You shall have the same rule for the sojourner and for the native, for I am the Lord your God.” 23So Moses spoke to the people of Israel, and they brought out of the camp the one who had cursed and stoned him with stones. Thus the people of Israel did as the Lord commanded Moses.

Numbers 35:30- “If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses. But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness."

Evidence from the New Testament
​

Matthew 26:52- Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

 

[Muskokaman]

Anyone who harbors anger in his heart, is also a murderer in his heart. Out of the abundance of IT the mouth, speaks. An evil man out of a wicked heart speaks evil things, and a just man out of a humble heart speaks uprightly.

Moses did not practice capital punishment. God destroyed those people for their lust. God will judge all men, not Moses.

Again, no Christian should be in favor of capital punishment. A soul is the life of the person, and it is not God's will that any perish. I would pray that this soul repents before he is to die. And no one can keep him out of the kingdom of God, if he confesses his sins to the one who will INDEED show him mercy. Even as that thief on his cross.

May Jesus bless you.

Start with Romans 2;12 and continue you just posted it you should know!

 

[Muskokaman]

1. Genesis 9:5 (Whole Chapter)
   And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
2. Genesis 9:6 (Whole Chapter)
   Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
   
   Just some of Gods Word to think about

1 - 2 Next
King James Version (KJV) Public Domain

 

[Ramon]

Start with Romans 2;12 and continue you just posted it you should know!

Thank you for that request. Let's hear the truth, with the understanding:


Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Now, who are those without the law, and who are those in the law? Which are you?

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Evidence from the Old Testament
​

{snip}

Thank you for this.

Can you answer the 4 other questions I posted?

 

[Muskokaman]

Thank you for that request. Let's hear the truth, with the understanding:


Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Now, who are those without the law, and who are those in the law? Which are you?

Obviously I'm within the Law because I'm not behind bars nor have I ever even been charged with any felony or misdemeanor, got a seatbelt ticket twice and 2 speeding tickets and I paid for my indiscretion ACCORDING TO THE LAW never said I don't forgive anyone their sins I said ACCORDING TO THE LAW
If we don't use it WHY HAVE IT? Why is this the prescribed punishment in the old testament for convicted murderers We are not judging his spirit We are judging his crime with JUDGES appointed by Older JUDGES who are there to hold up the LAW we are not convicting him his crime, is under the LAW
Do you refute the word of God as it was given us in Genesis?
Jesus said " I do not come to remove the law but to fulfill that which was spoken"

 

[DiscipleWilliam]

Thank you for this.

Can you answer the 4 other questions I posted?

Greetings,

I believe that the answers that I would provide will ultimately not sway you one way or the other. I understand that you don't believe in capital punishment and that's fine, but I do. I think that it would be best to just agree to disagree because trading scriptures back and forth just for the sake of an argument is kind of laborious considering the fact that we're not really getting anywhere. Thank you for your input and I respect your stance regarding the issue of capital punishment but I just humbly disagree.

 

[Fencepost]

Circling the GLOBE: IN THE NAME OF JESUS!

 

[Ramon]

Obviously I'm within the Law because I'm not behind bars nor have I ever even been charged with any felony or misdemeanor, got a seatbelt ticket twice and 2 speeding tickets and I paid for my indiscretion ACCORDING TO THE LAW never said I don't forgive anyone their sins I said ACCORDING TO THE LAW
If we don't use it WHY HAVE IT? Why is this the prescribed punishment in the old testament for convicted murderers We are not judging his spirit We are judging his crime with JUDGES appointed by Older JUDGES who are there to hold up the LAW we are not convicting him his crime, is under the LAW
Do you refute the word of God as it was given us in Genesis?
Jesus said " I do not come to remove the law but to fulfill that which was spoken"

Thank you for leading this further, we are going somewhere, and that also is appropriate:

Now let's get all of it:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Now, do you know how Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets?

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I believe that the answers that I would provide will ultimately not sway you one way or the other. {snip} I think that it would be best to just agree to disagree

Good point.

But I really am curious about your answers to at least the first question:

How do you "guarantee" that the death penalty makes people think twice about committing whatever crime they're committing? Are you saying that those who committed crimes worthy of the death penalty did think about it, and committed the crimes anyway, figuring it's worth it?

If you want to argue that the death penalty is just retribution for certain crimes, then I will agree to disagree and respect your views on that, as you have respected mine.

But if you're trying to say that it's a deterrent, well, the facts just don't line up with that. I can't agree to disagree with you on something that is factually false. It's like saying, "Well, I think 2+2=5, but I'll agree to disagree with you on that."

Does that make sense?

 

[DiscipleWilliam]

Good point.

But I really am curious about your answers to at least the first question:

How do you "guarantee" that the death penalty makes people think twice about committing whatever crime they're committing? Are you saying that those who committed crimes worthy of the death penalty did think about it, and committed the crimes anyway, figuring it's worth it?

Essentially. Think about it this way, if the penalty for exceeding the speed limit by 5 miles per hour (e.g. if the speed limit was 55MPH and you were doing 60MPH) was death if caught by a cop; would you be more careful regarding your speed in which you drive your car? Would you be more attentive to make sure your speedometer was calibrated correctly? Or would you just cease from driving entirely? Obviously the answer to at least the first question would be yes for any sane person. In like manner, so does capital punishment restrain the expression of evil.

I used to believe as you do until I really meditated on the consequences of NOT having capital punishment. This is all I'm saying.

P.S. when you say, "I can't agree to disagree with you on something that is factually false." You are essentially saying that you DO agree with me, or can reach an agreement with the "false" claim that I make. Making this sentence a logical fallacy.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

I used to believe as you do until I really meditated on the consequences of NOT having capital punishment. This is all I'm saying.

Are you saying that if we did not have capital punishment, all of a sudden people would go out murdering other people willy nilly, for no other reason than that they can?

That is factually incorrect. If it had any chance of being true, the crime rate in countries that do NOT practice capital punishment would be higher. The FACT is that the rate of violent crimes in countries that do not practice capital punishment is actually LOWER than in the US.

Again, if you're saying you believe that death is just punishment for certain crimes, I will agree to disagree with you and respect you. But if you say that the death penalty is a good thing because it keeps people from killing, well, I can't respect that any more than I can respect someone who believes that 2+2=5.

And no, that's not a fallacy. Reading comprehension is your friend.

 

[DiscipleWilliam]

Are you saying that if we did not have capital punishment, all of a sudden people would go out murdering other people willy nilly, for no other reason than that they can?

That is factually incorrect. If it had any chance of being true, the crime rate in countries that do NOT practice capital punishment would be higher. The FACT is that the rate of violent crimes in countries that do not practice capital punishment is actually LOWER than in the US.

Again, if you're saying you believe that death is just punishment for certain crimes, I will agree to disagree with you and respect you. But if you say that the death penalty is a good thing because it keeps people from killing, well, I can't respect that any more than I can respect someone who believes that 2+2=5.

And no, that's not a fallacy. Reading comprehension is your friend.

Greetings,

If you cannot respect someone who believes that 2+2=5 you should examine more closely and expel your bias. In a ratio scale, 2+2 will equal 5 for large values of 2 and small values of 5. For example, 2.4 still rounds down to 2, but when doubled, it becomes 4.8, which rounds to 5. This is possible because 2 actually represents a range of values which is rounded to 2 for daily practical purposes. Every measurement is always rounded off to the nearest measuring point. In an integer-based counting system, unless it is individual units which are being counted, the measuring point is the nearest integer.

Most people assume that 2 + 2 automatically equals 4 and that nothing else is possible. In philosophy, religion, ethics, or politics, 2 + 2 might make 5. Concluding that 2+2=4 is a physical fact only when counting units, but this statement is not an absolute truth. When referencing God 1+1+1 can equal 1; or 3 can equal 1 but for all intents and purposes I will just agree to disagree, agreed? Have a blessed day

 

[Fencepost]

Thank you for leading this further, we are going somewhere, and that also is appropriate:

Now let's get all of it:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Now, do you know how Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets?

Jesus is all things to all men. Then He empowered them to be fishers of men. For His glory and purpose.

 

[Jullianna]

A lot of people would find it very odd for an ex-cop and a native Texan to have a problem with the laws regarding the death penalty in the US, but I do. Deuteronomy 19 clearly sets out the difference between manslaughter and murder, and the death penalty for premeditated murder. What a lot of people tend to skip over is this verse of that chapter:

15 One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

There are instances when the death penalty is sought in circumstantial evidence cases. That's not scriptural. And I've been at many crime scenes and in crime labs. I know mistakes can be made and have been made. You can't undo killing an innocent person.

I would not have a problem with having to take a life to protect a life. If I had a problem with that I would have no business being a cop. But throwing the switch on an unarmed person is a whole other thing and is not something I could see myself doing. And if I'm not willing to do it myself, I don't think it's fair to ask someone else to do it for me. That would be cowardice in my book.

I know full well how emotional crimes involving capital punishment can be. I've arrested murderers, rapists, you name it. People who have done unspeakable things to the most innocent. Things that turn my stomach to remember. Emotions do run high. You do get angry. Very angry. But we are to be angry and sin not. Our laws in this area (in the US) simply don't line up with scripture.

And before we get into the whole "we're not under the law" thing. Yes, I know that. But we are under a "don't kill innocent people" thing, even under the New Covenant.

If and when our court system doesn't permit the death penalty to be considered in circumstantial evidence cases, I would reconsider; but I definitely wouldn't cheer about it.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

If and when our court system doesn't permit the death penalty to be considered in circumstantial evidence cases, I would reconsider; but I definitely wouldn't cheer about it.

That is good to hear. That is the main problem I had with it. I understand some people are in favor of the death penalty, but it sickens me that anyone would cheer for it.

 

[Matthew]

It sickens me that people are like that. And it sickens me that so many Christians cling to the party that cheers death. As Christians, should we not be denouncing such behavior?

I agree with you in so far as it is a terrible thing to see people revelling in the death of another person, people seem to miss the point entirely, it's hard for me to separate the person who is being executed from the person cheering on as it happens......it's all part of the legacy of crime and it shows us in chilling terms just how much further the consequences go beyond those invloved.

I don't support it, but it is a difficult issue to resolve, I've seen biblical arguments presented for and against and all were clearly defined and credible....with the right spin of course.

Even for the worst criminals there are ways to remove them from society and remove the burden of their care from society also, before we get to the question of is the penalty right or wrong I ask is it even needed, and I don't think it is.

I haven't seen this GOP debate, but I sincerely hope the USA does not elect a President who strongly supports it, whatever the current view of the nation as a whole, I would hope that as a whole the desire would be to one day see it gone.....for a nation that declares itself the leader of the world and the purest example of peace and freedom it's not something anyone should 'like'.

Looking at the list of Countries that have the penalty, it's not a list you should want to be on.