Understanding God’s election
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John 17:2-3~ You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent.
Prov 9:10
10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding .
NIV
And,
Prov 16:22
2 Understanding is a fountain of life to those who have it,
but folly brings punishment to fools.
NIV
So, for those of us who can connect the dots: True spiritual understanding is a "fountain of life" (eternal life) to those who have it, but no one can have that unless they first have true, saving knowledge of the Holy One, but no one can have that unless they first have eternal life since the essence of this life is knowing God. And this makes perfectly good logical sense also, since biblical faith is NOT blind. It is not irrational faith. Even in this world, people truly trust those they know. Rational, prudent, wise, discerning people don't implicitly trust someone then get to know them!
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No, the normative chronological order is: seeking > finding/learning GRFS > believing GW/being saved > receiving Christ's HS > getting to know God better or more intimately as one learns more of GW all life long > dying > going to heaven. (I trust you are familiar with the Scriptural basis for this order, but I can cite them if you desire :^)
Because that wasn't the substance of our discussion.
Natural revelation cannot and does not lead to faith and salvation. Read Matthew 16 afresh. Jesus says the revelation that Peter received was directly from God the Father. He goes on to say that this is how the church will be built.
So if the church is built through direct revelation, and salvation is by faith, faith is the result of supernatural revelation from the Father.
No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. Revelation from the Father is part of that drawing.
Natural revelation cannot and does not lead to faith and salvation. Read Matthew 16 afresh. Jesus says the revelation that Peter received was directly from God the Father. He goes on to say that this is how the church will be built.
So if the church is built through direct revelation, and salvation is by faith, faith is the result of supernatural revelation from the Father.
No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. Revelation from the Father is part of that drawing.
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No, that's the "normative chronological order" according to the "wisdom" of the world which is foolishness to God. But it's not logical at all! The Dead can do no seeking! If they could, there would be no need for God to effectually draw anyone to Christ! Jesus clearly stated the logical order:
John 11:26
26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
NIV
Spiritual life clearly precedes faith.
John 11:26
26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
NIV
Spiritual life clearly precedes faith.
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I think that people do seek, for they know there is a God, but the natural man is hostile
in his mind toward the One True God, and the seeking they do is for something other to
explain all that is... there is much vain imagination in this realm, but ultimately Truth is
bound to the Person and work of Jesus Christ, Who has promised to reveal Himself to those
who seek sincerely and diligently... and all the while God is drawing us with loving kindness.
Made alive in Christ and with circumcised heart, the seeker is enabled to respond positively
to that which was hitherto incomprehensible in his darkened heart and hostile-to-God mind.
in his mind toward the One True God, and the seeking they do is for something other to
explain all that is... there is much vain imagination in this realm, but ultimately Truth is
bound to the Person and work of Jesus Christ, Who has promised to reveal Himself to those
who seek sincerely and diligently... and all the while God is drawing us with loving kindness.
Made alive in Christ and with circumcised heart, the seeker is enabled to respond positively
to that which was hitherto incomprehensible in his darkened heart and hostile-to-God mind.
What came first: the chicken or the egg? Or this ancient philosophical question framed theologically: What came first: Life from the dead or faith?
One of the passages that answers this question is found in 2Cor 3 in which Paul is discussing the superiority of New Covenant over the Old.
2 Cor 3:7-16
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
NIV
Another hermeneutical principle that is extremely important to adopt and apply with many passages is the order of words or phrases as they appear in any given passage.
So Paul here is teaching that to this very day (obviously in Paul's time) the Jews in particular were not able to comprehend the Gospel of the New Covenant because their minds were made dull. And this lack of understanding, Paul expressed in terms of the metaphor "veil", since he was drawing an analogy between the veil in the OC under Moses and the same veil that remains in this NC economy. We can know that Paul had primarily Jews in mind since he refers to the "when the old covenant is read".
This "veil" persisted in Paul's day because "only in Christ is it taken away"! It is not taken away outside of Christ. It is not taken away by the Jews first coming to faith and repentance.
But what about v.16, right? But remember now: Verse 14 precedes v. 16! This latter verse says "But WHENEVER anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away". But...notice what the verse does NOT say: It does NOT say, "But AFTER anyone turns..." So what is Paul getting at here? Well first, he makes it plain that the veil is only lifted by being in Christ. That much is very clear. All verse 16 is saying is HOW anyone can know the veil has been lifted. How people can know that it has been lifted -- that God has indeed performed a work in their heart -- is by their faith and repentance (turning FROM sin TO the Lord) which is when they turned to the Lord. Whenever anyone turns to the Lord, this immediately implies repentance, i.e. turning from sin. One cannot turn to the Lord, apart from turning from evil. Their faith and repentance gives affirmation to God's antecedent supernatural work in their hearts. This is how saints become aware of God's work and power in their lives. This is how they know the veil has been supernaturally and effectually lifted.
I have another passage in mind, but it'll have to wait until later.
One of the passages that answers this question is found in 2Cor 3 in which Paul is discussing the superiority of New Covenant over the Old.
2 Cor 3:7-16
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
NIV
Another hermeneutical principle that is extremely important to adopt and apply with many passages is the order of words or phrases as they appear in any given passage.
So Paul here is teaching that to this very day (obviously in Paul's time) the Jews in particular were not able to comprehend the Gospel of the New Covenant because their minds were made dull. And this lack of understanding, Paul expressed in terms of the metaphor "veil", since he was drawing an analogy between the veil in the OC under Moses and the same veil that remains in this NC economy. We can know that Paul had primarily Jews in mind since he refers to the "when the old covenant is read".
This "veil" persisted in Paul's day because "only in Christ is it taken away"! It is not taken away outside of Christ. It is not taken away by the Jews first coming to faith and repentance.
But what about v.16, right? But remember now: Verse 14 precedes v. 16! This latter verse says "But WHENEVER anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away". But...notice what the verse does NOT say: It does NOT say, "But AFTER anyone turns..." So what is Paul getting at here? Well first, he makes it plain that the veil is only lifted by being in Christ. That much is very clear. All verse 16 is saying is HOW anyone can know the veil has been lifted. How people can know that it has been lifted -- that God has indeed performed a work in their heart -- is by their faith and repentance (turning FROM sin TO the Lord) which is when they turned to the Lord. Whenever anyone turns to the Lord, this immediately implies repentance, i.e. turning from sin. One cannot turn to the Lord, apart from turning from evil. Their faith and repentance gives affirmation to God's antecedent supernatural work in their hearts. This is how saints become aware of God's work and power in their lives. This is how they know the veil has been supernaturally and effectually lifted.
I have another passage in mind, but it'll have to wait until later.
Absolutely correct, raised in a Christian family you are much more likely to be become a Christian.
Raised in Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, and North Korea, a conversion is a remote chance. Because
Christian families are rare and Christian churches are rare also.
There are many Christian families in the USA and very few, if any in Yemen or North Korea.
Is God racial?
God does not elect anyone in North Korea?
Christianity is an enemy of the state in North Korea.
Raised in Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, and North Korea, a conversion is a remote chance. Because
Christian families are rare and Christian churches are rare also.
There are many Christian families in the USA and very few, if any in Yemen or North Korea.
Is God racial?
God does not elect anyone in North Korea?
Christianity is an enemy of the state in North Korea.
Racial? No! Sovereign? Absolutely!
Acts 16:6-7
6 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia . 7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.
NIV
It appears the Wind (the Holy Spirit) was not blowing in the direction Paul and his friends wanted to go.
Acts 16:6-7
6 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia . 7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.
NIV
It appears the Wind (the Holy Spirit) was not blowing in the direction Paul and his friends wanted to go.
Salvation is only available through the reconciliation of Jesus Christ.
Yet any person that becomes a Christian and does not bare fruit, read below.
John 15: 1-2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away,
and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Yet any person that becomes a Christian and does not bare fruit, read below.
John 15: 1-2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away,
and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Some of these Muslim countries have far exceeded a generation or two.
In North Korea outside of the capital there are no churches as Christianity is illegal.
There may be one or two churches in the capital for tourists to attend.
They have deserters that will tell you that any Christian would not even tell their family. That they were
a Christian and the gospel cannot be preached as Christianity is illegal.
In North Korea outside of the capital there are no churches as Christianity is illegal.
There may be one or two churches in the capital for tourists to attend.
They have deserters that will tell you that any Christian would not even tell their family. That they were
a Christian and the gospel cannot be preached as Christianity is illegal.
North Korea is number one on the list of the most dangerous places for Christians.
North Korea is the world's "most dangerous place to follow Jesus", where Christians are thrown in prison camps and executed for their faith, according to a global report released today.
Timothy Cho, who works as a spokesperson for Christian charity Open Doors UK, told the ABC he escaped North Korea at age 17.
Children in North Korea were subject to brainwashing in the state ideology to "believe, regard, speak and act as if Kim is god," Mr Cho said, referring to the autocratic Kim dynasty who have ruled the country since the mid-20th century.
"North Korea often says Christianity is an American religion, and they try to use Christianity to destroy North Korean society," he said.
(ABC.net.au/news/2025-01-15/north-korea-declared-worst-country-to-be-a-christian)
North Korea is the world's "most dangerous place to follow Jesus", where Christians are thrown in prison camps and executed for their faith, according to a global report released today.
Timothy Cho, who works as a spokesperson for Christian charity Open Doors UK, told the ABC he escaped North Korea at age 17.
Children in North Korea were subject to brainwashing in the state ideology to "believe, regard, speak and act as if Kim is god," Mr Cho said, referring to the autocratic Kim dynasty who have ruled the country since the mid-20th century.
"North Korea often says Christianity is an American religion, and they try to use Christianity to destroy North Korean society," he said.
(ABC.net.au/news/2025-01-15/north-korea-declared-worst-country-to-be-a-christian)