Understanding God’s election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,603
1,045
113
No church tradition for me - but it sounds so for you. No one can walk in the Spirit unless they have been given the Spirit. When
we became saved we were given the Spirit. It is not possible that we gave Him to ourselves. To walk in the Spirit is to cease from our efforts for salvation and trust solely in God's mercy and grace through Christ as Savior. No one, of themselves, unless saved and having been given the Spirit, can do so.
You are incorrect in your understanding of walking in the Spirit.

Your confusing the life of walking in the Spirit with obtaining righteousness through your own efforts.

Here is Chat GPT's reading of walking by the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16
"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

1. "Walking by the Spirit"
Paul frequently emphasizes the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding and empowering believers to live in alignment with God’s will. For example:
  • Romans 8:5-6: "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace."
    Here, Paul contrasts the "flesh" (our sinful nature) with the Spirit, emphasizing that living by the Spirit brings life and peace. Walking by the Spirit means surrendering to God’s guidance and allowing His Spirit to transform your desires.
2. "Not gratifying the desires of the flesh"
Paul describes the "desires of the flesh" as behaviors and attitudes that are contrary to God's will. Later in Galatians 5, he lists these works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) and contrasts them with the "fruit of the Spirit" (Galatians 5:22-23).
In Romans 13:14, he provides similar advice: "Clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh." Here, Paul stresses that living a Spirit-led life involves putting on Christ—adopting His character and love.

3. The Emphasis on Love
Paul often ties walking by the Spirit to living a life of love:
  • Galatians 5:14: "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’"
  • Romans 13:10: "Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
    Love, as Paul describes, is the highest expression of a Spirit-filled life. The Spirit enables believers to genuinely love others, transcending selfish, fleshly desires.
Additionally, in 1 Corinthians 13:13, Paul elevates love above faith and hope, saying, "And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." Love is not just a virtue but the essence of a life aligned with the Spirit.
Summary
Galatians 5:16 invites believers to surrender to the Spirit’s leading, which naturally results in overcoming sinful desires. For Paul, walking by the Spirit is inseparable from living a life of love, as love fulfills God’s law and reflects the character of Christ.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,603
1,045
113
Good way to duck actually responding to my post.

Can you show me a verse in scripture that says faith comes by a consideration of nature, and a consideration of nature by an innate sense of eternity?
I have seen people who die and meet God then are resuscitated and become Christians.

Is that in the scripture?
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,603
1,045
113
The vine is responsible for fruit. The branches merely bear it. If you are truly in Christ, you will bear fruit.
What is actually being taught in the passage is that it is possible to be connected in some way to Jesus without Him abiding in you. Notice that we must abide in Him, but also Him in us, in order to bear fruit.
There are plenty who have attached themselves to the church and those things associated with it. They know the pastor, the songbook, the liturgy, all without truly knowing God or Jesus. They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. Most will eventually fall away, and this is why you believe believers can fall away, all the while you produce many of them by telling them all they need to do is say a sinner's prayer and receive Jesus into their hearts.

True salvation is a conversion; a transformation. A new creation is produced.
A devastating verse for many church organizations you quoted.

They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.

They deny the POWER of the Holy Spirit in denial of the gifts, fruit, and ministries of the Holy Spirit.

The new creation must bear the fruit and discard the deeds of the flesh.
 
Oct 19, 2024
2,405
573
113
Good way to duck actually responding to my post.

Can you show me a verse in scripture that says faith comes by a consideration of nature, and a consideration of nature by an innate sense of eternity?
Already have, (but you're too quacked to perceive :^)
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,631
7,044
113
62
A devastating verse for many church organizations you quoted.

They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.

They deny the POWER of the Holy Spirit in denial of the gifts, fruit, and ministries of the Holy Spirit.

The new creation must bear the fruit and discard the deeds of the flesh.
The new creation always bears fruit.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
4,054
684
113
Your confusing the life of walking in the Spirit with obtaining righteousness through your own efforts.
I am saying the opposite of that - that to walk in the Spirit, we must first be indwelt by the Spirit. That occurs only through salvation
and being born again as the gifts of God - it is not of ourselves. I am not suggesting that anyone can obtain righteousness through their own efforts. Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, is how God enters "in" us, from/by which, and at the same time, we are also placed "in" Jesus, that henceforth we bring forth much fruit.

[Jhn 15:16 KJV]
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Those chosen and ordained by God He has made into His disciples, and they bring forth much fruit.

[Jhn 15:8 KJV]
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

As a general rule, I don't think it wise to have discussions based upon the output of Chat GPT. Scripture alone -Sola Scriptura - is a more than sufficient basis for any discussion - with nothing layered over it that can obscure it, ESPECIALLY since it is automated software that produces its own biblical summaries once removed from the source. Given that it was clearly God's admonition to us to use scripture alone, I suggest, that to be correctly and sufficiently edified and to learn, you use only scripture - God gave us these warnings for a reason.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[1Pe 2:2 KJV]
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
 
Oct 19, 2024
2,405
573
113
I apologize. Which verse says faith comes by a consideration of nature, and consideration of nature by an innate sense of eternity?
The entire Bible can be viewed as encouraging faith by considering creation, but RM 1:20 says souls are without excuse for disbelief when God's power and love are revealed by creation. Read PS 19:1-4 for Paul's OT context. PS 8:1-3 seems relevant also.

(Rufus, are you tracking? :^)
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,631
7,044
113
62
The entire Bible can be viewed as encouraging faith by considering creation, but RM 1:20 says souls are without excuse for disbelief when God's power and love are revealed by creation. Read PS 19:1-4 for Paul's OT context. PS 8:1-3 seems relevant also.

(Rufus, are you tracking? :^)
While the Bible makes clear that the existence of God can be known through creation and that men are accountable before God as a result, no where does it say that faith results from a consideration of creation. You have imposed that upon the text.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,512
529
113
You are incorrect in your understanding of walking in the Spirit.

Your confusing the life of walking in the Spirit with obtaining righteousness through your own efforts.

Here is Chat GPT's reading of walking by the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16
"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

1. "Walking by the Spirit"
Paul frequently emphasizes the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding and empowering believers to live in alignment with God’s will. For example:
  • Romans 8:5-6: "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace."
    Here, Paul contrasts the "flesh" (our sinful nature) with the Spirit, emphasizing that living by the Spirit brings life and peace. Walking by the Spirit means surrendering to God’s guidance and allowing His Spirit to transform your desires.
2. "Not gratifying the desires of the flesh"
Paul describes the "desires of the flesh" as behaviors and attitudes that are contrary to God's will. Later in Galatians 5, he lists these works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) and contrasts them with the "fruit of the Spirit" (Galatians 5:22-23).
In Romans 13:14, he provides similar advice: "Clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh." Here, Paul stresses that living a Spirit-led life involves putting on Christ—adopting His character and love.

3. The Emphasis on Love
Paul often ties walking by the Spirit to living a life of love:
  • Galatians 5:14: "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’"
  • Romans 13:10: "Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
    Love, as Paul describes, is the highest expression of a Spirit-filled life. The Spirit enables believers to genuinely love others, transcending selfish, fleshly desires.
Additionally, in 1 Corinthians 13:13, Paul elevates love above faith and hope, saying, "And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." Love is not just a virtue but the essence of a life aligned with the Spirit.
Summary
Galatians 5:16 invites believers to surrender to the Spirit’s leading, which naturally results in overcoming sinful desires. For Paul, walking by the Spirit is inseparable from living a life of love, as love fulfills God’s law and reflects the character of Christ.
Does the Holy Spirit also remove the hate the unregenerate naturally have for God and His Christ and replace it with love for Him?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,512
529
113
The entire Bible can be viewed as encouraging faith by considering creation, but RM 1:20 says souls are without excuse for disbelief when God's power and love are revealed by creation. Read PS 19:1-4 for Paul's OT context. PS 8:1-3 seems relevant also.

(Rufus, are you tracking? :^)
Faith in whom and for what reason? The world is very religious by nature. Most people in of the world believe in their version of God. Does this kind of faith save them?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,512
529
113
Already did, but you ain't gonna find it with a calloused mind.

(Hint: "men are without excuse" :^)
They are without excuse because they reject what they discovered ABOUT God, having no desire to retain God in their knowledge [base]. Romans 1 does not teach that they are without excuse because they rejected the Gospel.
 

Burn1986

Active member
Mar 4, 2024
982
223
43
I have not swamped the OP with a lot of Scripture quotations,
but hopefully you will recall the NT verses which confirm the following …


Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel
1 – Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve,
all humans are born with an inherited sin nature,
and are bent on sinning instead of following God (Romans 3:9-18).
Having a saving faith is against their very nature!
2 - All unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan,
and are bent on doing whatever he wants them to do (2 Timothy 2:26).
Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free (Luke 4:18).
Having a saving faith is against our enemy’s plans for them,
which, of course, is spending eternity with Satan and his demons in hell.
If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!
Similarly, the “anyones” who believe in Jesus in verses such as John 3:16
are the ones whom God has given saving faith!


Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes
Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 16:15).
Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further.
Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …

“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)

God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!
God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.

“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9)
God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent …
… the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.
Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).


The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.

Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.
Okay, so how is knowing all that gonna get me a spiritual breakthrough?
 

Burn1986

Active member
Mar 4, 2024
982
223
43
Faith in whom and for what reason? The world is very religious by nature. Most people in of the world believe in their version of God. Does this kind of faith save them?
Sounds like you need to get right with God yourself bro. Or (according to you) whatever kind of god you believe in. I guess you could go out and talk to your fence post for awhile, or whatever works for you lol
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,603
1,045
113
I am saying the opposite of that - that to walk in the Spirit, we must first be indwelt by the Spirit. That occurs only through salvation
and being born again as the gifts of God - it is not of ourselves. I am not suggesting that anyone can obtain righteousness through their own efforts. Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, is how God enters "in" us, from/by which, and at the same time, we are also placed "in" Jesus, that henceforth we bring forth much fruit.

[Jhn 15:16 KJV]
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Those chosen and ordained by God He has made into His disciples, and they bring forth much fruit.

[Jhn 15:8 KJV]
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

As a general rule, I don't think it wise to have discussions based upon the output of Chat GPT. Scripture alone -Sola Scriptura - is a more than sufficient basis for any discussion - with nothing layered over it that can obscure it, ESPECIALLY since it is automated software that produces its own biblical summaries once removed from the source. Given that it was clearly God's admonition to us to use scripture alone, I suggest, that to be correctly and sufficiently edified and to learn, you use only scripture - God gave us these warnings for a reason.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[1Pe 2:2 KJV]
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
The problem is that people cannot read these simple letters.

They apply an interpretation and distort the literal meaning of verses.

That's where Chat GPT excels in that plain reading of the text.

Your not using Sola Scripture at all.

If you were using Sola Scripture you would not adhere to Cessationism.
 

Burn1986

Active member
Mar 4, 2024
982
223
43
Reading through this garbage is like reading through a shop manual on putting together an old IBM computer - dry, out-of-date, ou-of-touch, irrelevant, and unable to have an impact on todays society.
 
Oct 19, 2024
2,405
573
113
While the Bible makes clear that the existence of God can be known through creation and that men are accountable before God as a result, no where does it say that faith results from a consideration of creation. You have imposed that upon the text.
No I have not, but you seem not to have the gift of semantics that understands implication or that (logically) if a person is without excuse for NOT having faith, that means/implies that they could/should have such faith--that faith SHOULD HAVE resulted from considering creation.

Were you ever a Boy Scout, or have you never gone camping and felt closer to God surrounded by nature hiking in the mountains away from the hustle and bustle?