If you look at the footnote in your Bible, you should see that MK 16:9-20 is not well-attested, and there are no living denominations practicing poisonous snake handling and drinking poison. Also, we see a transition from the miracles mentioned in Acts, which were performed in order to establish the church, which was instructed to walk by faith, not by sight or from miracle to miracle. Paul's later epistles did not advocate miracle-working but rather Bible-believing.
Mark 16:17-16:20 The witnesses are not doing it.
- Thread starter Brasspen
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Thanks GWH for your response. It seems you are advocating that apostles miracles have ceased. But you are basing this, it seems to me, on a surface interpretation of the verses. For example, consider drinking poison which you mention. Do you think that the verse in question is talking about drinking poison, like arsenic or water hemlock or any other physical poison? What does the Bible really mean when it talks about drinking, in the verse we are considering? Well, if you look at Isaiah 55, for example, we find that people are thirsty: "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. " It seems that God is using the terminology of thirsty people drinking water to really mean coming to the gospel and taking in the gospel. Indeed, we read about drinking as receiving Christ's sacrifice for us: "For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. " Again, we read: "Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. " Perhaps there is a deeper meaning to the verses you are considering in Mark 16. Perhaps if you understood the deeper meaning you would not have to explain away the verses as no longer occurring. However, I do agree with you about your statement that the verses are about Bible-believing, which I also affirm to be the case.
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faith.
we have to hear about it all from his chosen witnesses the apostles and early church who established the nt scripture
they walked with Jesus they witnessed these things we aren’t meant to . We are meant to hear and believe the gospel he sent them out to preach and believe by the word without seeing
faith is based on what you haven’t physically seen but you heard about it and believe
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
Hebrews 11:1 KJV
“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
( his chosen and sent apostles and witnesses )
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
John 17:6, 20-
they were meant to see the miracles and proofs and walk with Jesus before the spirit was given we are meant to hear thier witness and believe in the hope they are preaching
think of Thomas and what Jesus told him “ you believe because you see and touched me , but blessed are those who believe and do not see “
if we see and touch something it’s not faith , if we hear about what we’ve not seen and believe , it’s faith
faith.
we have to hear about it all from his chosen witnesses the apostles and early church who established the nt scripture
they walked with Jesus they witnessed these things we aren’t meant to . We are meant to hear and believe the gospel he sent them out to preach and believe by the word without seeing
faith is based on what you haven’t physically seen but you heard about it and believe
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
Hebrews 11:1 KJV
“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
( his chosen and sent apostles and witnesses )
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
John 17:6, 20-
they were meant to see the miracles and proofs and walk with Jesus before the spirit was given we are meant to hear thier witness and believe in the hope they are preaching
think of Thomas and what Jesus told him “ you believe because you see and touched me , but blessed are those who believe and do not see “
if we see and touch something it’s not faith , if we hear about what we’ve not seen and believe , it’s faith
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The point I was trying to make is: Why wouldn't there be a need to confirm the message today? People believe all sorts of books on faith, the quran and the book of mormon.
If someone came up to me and told me to repent and believe the gospel and all I had was what some guy told me about what some other guys who I never have heard of wrote, I wouldn't be too convinced.
If that same evangelist came up to me, told me the Gospel and I saw a miracle verify his message, I would be a believer on the spot, clearly this guy has something!
That is how most people would think. Obviously I already believe the gospel, so I need not miracles to believe, but I believe that is the reason the apostles did miracles, because of the scenario I gave above. Without the miracles, why should anyone believe anything? No evidence. With miracles following the message, the proof is in the pudding so to speak.
If someone came up to me and told me to repent and believe the gospel and all I had was what some guy told me about what some other guys who I never have heard of wrote, I wouldn't be too convinced.
If that same evangelist came up to me, told me the Gospel and I saw a miracle verify his message, I would be a believer on the spot, clearly this guy has something!
That is how most people would think. Obviously I already believe the gospel, so I need not miracles to believe, but I believe that is the reason the apostles did miracles, because of the scenario I gave above. Without the miracles, why should anyone believe anything? No evidence. With miracles following the message, the proof is in the pudding so to speak.
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Sadly, if they attend Churches that believe the Gifts have ended they will see a miserable dead boring experience that will run them away.
But should they attend the wrong Churches that promote Gifts for today they will experience the same thing they have been experiencing in the world and see no difference.
One thing we know is that God won't be leading people to any of those two for mentioned Churches ^
And this is why we see the True Pentecostal Churches booming. Not Charismatic, not a show no different than the world, but to be true bonafide Pentecostal Church. This is where God is leading the masses today for a sincere and true Bible based experience of the foundational Church we read in the Gospels and Book of Acts.
But should they attend the wrong Churches that promote Gifts for today they will experience the same thing they have been experiencing in the world and see no difference.
One thing we know is that God won't be leading people to any of those two for mentioned Churches ^
And this is why we see the True Pentecostal Churches booming. Not Charismatic, not a show no different than the world, but to be true bonafide Pentecostal Church. This is where God is leading the masses today for a sincere and true Bible based experience of the foundational Church we read in the Gospels and Book of Acts.
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Yes some folks need signs and wonders to believe what God said or that he even Exists.
“And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.”
Mark 8:11-12 KJV
It’s hearing , not seeing that produces faith
“for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news! Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”
Romans 10:13-15, 17 NIV
It’s hearing the word now we shouldn’t need proof we have the testimony of God about his son he doesn’t do demands for signs to convince us we have to her about Jesus and believe who is Gods sign
“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
Isaiah 7:14 KJV
seven hundred or so years later his sign was revealed to the world
“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
…and knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”
Matthew 1:21-23, 25 KJV
If we all have to actually witness the birth or the resurrection or some miraculous event or we just can’t believe it’s going to be hard to have any faith that comes from hearing the message about Jesus
“These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are to receive the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.”
1 Peter 1:7-9 NIV
“And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.”
Mark 8:11-12 KJV
It’s hearing , not seeing that produces faith
“for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news! Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”
Romans 10:13-15, 17 NIV
It’s hearing the word now we shouldn’t need proof we have the testimony of God about his son he doesn’t do demands for signs to convince us we have to her about Jesus and believe who is Gods sign
“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
Isaiah 7:14 KJV
seven hundred or so years later his sign was revealed to the world
“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
…and knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”
Matthew 1:21-23, 25 KJV
If we all have to actually witness the birth or the resurrection or some miraculous event or we just can’t believe it’s going to be hard to have any faith that comes from hearing the message about Jesus
“These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are to receive the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.”
1 Peter 1:7-9 NIV
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I agree with you that both extremes are terrible.
You have some abusing or fraudulent gifts going on with people pretending to be a dog peeing and claiming they are under the Holy Spirit's control... Thats just horrible.
On the flip side you have people that are spiritually dead as dust, refusing to admit any miracles can happen or the continuation of the gifts until we see him face to face when He returns.
There is a golden middle road so to speak, as you said.
You have some abusing or fraudulent gifts going on with people pretending to be a dog peeing and claiming they are under the Holy Spirit's control... Thats just horrible.
On the flip side you have people that are spiritually dead as dust, refusing to admit any miracles can happen or the continuation of the gifts until we see him face to face when He returns.
There is a golden middle road so to speak, as you said.
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Oh, I think they are:
Not publicly, thank, God is and has always remained the same Loving us all his creation, even though many have gone astray, and many have now believed God, and many still yet to believe God does just love us all.
Me anyways, as there are many that see this as well in themselves as well, many yet to still step in personally, between God and them, and each person knows personally Romans 8
Not publicly, thank, God is and has always remained the same Loving us all his creation, even though many have gone astray, and many have now believed God, and many still yet to believe God does just love us all.
Me anyways, as there are many that see this as well in themselves as well, many yet to still step in personally, between God and them, and each person knows personally Romans 8
I see a mixture of true Believers in the risen Son and understand they are reconciled as forgiven first, before the new birth dcould ever get given them. Is given them and do, do miracles to this day, without attraction od people to gloat over them, thanks
The other part is fake Fools Gold, yet Jesus the risen still is preached, so I glory in both those that are sincere and those that are not, Christ is preached, evil lost, thank God
The other part is fake Fools Gold, yet Jesus the risen still is preached, so I glory in both those that are sincere and those that are not, Christ is preached, evil lost, thank God
Pure emotion. You are going off your feelings instead of the truth, and you ignore the purposes of why they did miracles and how they received them. If you didn’t, then you’d have to give up your position. If you or anyone had these same abilities as the apostles and other early Christians, they’d be on the news. Not behind church doors.
You are extrapolating well beyond what your scriptures actually say, believer08. I would not be a certain of your conclusions as you seem to be, based on what those texts actually say. I have been healed many times by applying the biblical teaching on faith and healing. Jesus is still alive, whether seen or unseen, to lay hands on people and impart the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is still here to impart spiritual gifts to whomsoever He wills.
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What does scripture say is the purpose of doing miracles and what does scripture say is the way miracles are received? The world, which controls the news, does not want to report on what God is doing. They will gladly report on the charlatons within the church whose deceptive "ministries" dishonour Christ and bring the gospel into disrepute.
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I read this today;
Book of Romans.
{1:18} For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who
hold the truth in unrighteousness; {1:19} Because that
which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God
hath shewed [it] unto them. {1:20} For the invisible things
of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being
understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal
power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: {1:21}
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not
as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their
imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. {1:22}
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
{1:23} And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into
an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and
fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Book of Romans.
{1:18} For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who
hold the truth in unrighteousness; {1:19} Because that
which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God
hath shewed [it] unto them. {1:20} For the invisible things
of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being
understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal
power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: {1:21}
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not
as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their
imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. {1:22}
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
{1:23} And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into
an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and
fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
I find it astonishing when I read people saying such things do not exist today and then say it is based on emotion not truth all the secular believers vs the ones who believe and have tasted because of it I have seen this many times in this forum.
Some stick with the word and that is good but deny the power thereof yes the word of God even testifies to these things that those who believe will do greater things that faith can move mountains we deny the supernatural aspects of God and justify it by saying being grounded in the word yet if we werte truly grounded we would know that miorcales casting out demons revealing the power of God through us all of this is in scripture it says clearly what happens when one believes but it truly is saddening when I see this.
If one speaks and testifies it is emotion if one provides scripture to prove it then that scripture is rejected when will his people wake up and remember who we are in him? the authority we have in him the power that he has for those who believe.
if your truly grounded in his word then stop looking at the ground and look up
Some stick with the word and that is good but deny the power thereof yes the word of God even testifies to these things that those who believe will do greater things that faith can move mountains we deny the supernatural aspects of God and justify it by saying being grounded in the word yet if we werte truly grounded we would know that miorcales casting out demons revealing the power of God through us all of this is in scripture it says clearly what happens when one believes but it truly is saddening when I see this.
If one speaks and testifies it is emotion if one provides scripture to prove it then that scripture is rejected when will his people wake up and remember who we are in him? the authority we have in him the power that he has for those who believe.
if your truly grounded in his word then stop looking at the ground and look up
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