The conversion of the Philippian Jailer in Acts 16.

[lrs68]

How many works are required?

Depends.
How many rewards in Heaven do you want?

Being saved is a Gift, but eternal rewards can be earned through good works.

 

[lrs68]

Recently got in contact with a friend after 30+ years, shared Spirit filled faith with him, he asked the neighbor pastor to be baptized, as he came out of the water he experienced what he described as a powerful electric like power through his body and told the pastor, responded "Sounds like this one took!".
blessings

Amen!

 

[TrustandObey]

We disagree. Once again, a man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

Regardless of what a ring may symbolize in a marriage, baptism is labeled as the "pledge of a good conscience toward God" and not a symbol of that pledge. A necessary pledge, just as necessary as repentance and faith.

Just as faith must be in the proper object so too must we act obediently to that proper object.

Simply having a sincere trust is not evidence of salvation and baptism is certainly not a symbol of that sincere faith.

Without this pledge of a good conscience your "baptism" is simply a removal of dirt from the body.

But with this pledge, "It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ". (1st Peter 3:21b)

This pledge of faith must be made, it is the point and time of salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Regardless of what a ring may symbolize in a marriage, baptism is labeled as the "pledge of a good conscience toward God" and not a symbol of that pledge. A necessary pledge, just as necessary as repentance and faith.

False. Again, in Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by/signified in the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Just as faith must be in the proper object so too must we act obediently to that proper object.

The proper object of our faith in receiving salvation is Jesus Christ/His death, burial and resurrection. (Romans 1:16; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9). Faith is believing, trusting, relying in Jesus Christ to save us through His death, burial and resurrection. Obedience which follows is works and we are not saved by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). If water baptism (along with other works) is the object of your faith in receiving salvation, then your faith is not in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and you have turned to supplements/works salvation. (Romans 11:6) Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.

Simply having a sincere trust is not evidence of salvation and baptism is certainly not a symbol of that sincere faith.

Having faith in water baptism for salvation instead of having faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is not sincere faith or the evidence of salvation. Again, baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

Without this pledge of a good conscience your "baptism" is simply a removal of dirt from the body.

You fail to see the irony in that statement. What saves a person from sin and from a guilty conscience is not some eternal rite, but by faith getting into the ark of safety, Jesus Christ, by faith in His death, burial and resurrection.

But with this pledge, "It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ". (1st Peter 3:21b)

Not the removal of dirt from the flesh, "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience -through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.

This pledge of faith must be made, it is the point and time of salvation.

False. The moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is the time of salvation. (Acts 10:43-47; 26:18; Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15)

 

[shittim]

False. Again, in Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by/signified in the outward ceremony of water baptism).

The proper object of our faith in receiving salvation is Jesus Christ/His death, burial and resurrection. (Romans 1:16; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9). Faith is believing, trusting, relying in Jesus Christ to save us through His death, burial and resurrection. Obedience which follows is works and we are not saved by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). If water baptism (along with other works) is the object of your faith in receiving salvation, then your faith is not in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and you have turned to supplements/works salvation. (Romans 11:6) Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.

Having faith in water baptism for salvation instead of having faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is not sincere faith or the evidence of salvation. Again, baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

You fail to see the irony in that statement. What saves a person from sin and from a guilty conscience is not some eternal rite, but by faith getting into the ark of safety, Jesus Christ, by faith in His death, burial and resurrection.

Not the removal of dirt from the flesh, "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience -through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.

False. The moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is the time of salvation. (Acts 10:43-47; 26:18; Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15)

An outward sign of an inward change?

 

[studier]

In Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by/signified in the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household--which is a type of Christ). *The context reveals that only the righteous (Noah and his family) were dry and therefore safe. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contract with the water and they all perished.

It's interesting that you chose the translation "appeal". Did you do so for a reason or because you like the ESV or whatever you used?

BTW, when I worked on this some time ago, I ended up preferring "appeal" which led me into several attached concepts.

Thanks for the response!

 

[mailmandan]

It's interesting that you chose the translation "appeal". Did you do so for a reason or because you like the ESV or whatever you used?

BTW, when I worked on this some time ago, I ended up preferring "appeal" which led me into several attached concepts.

Thanks for the response!

You are welcome. Some translations say "appeal" (including the ESV and NASB) and some say "pledge." I have no problem with either translated word.

 

[studier]

You are welcome. Some translations say "appeal" (including the ESV and NASB) and some say "pledge." I have no problem with either translated word.

I came to see the appeal in the sense of a request making more sense than pledging to God. But as you, say, either can be meaningful. I see the clean conscience trending into having the conscience perfected under the Great High Priesthood of our Lord per Hebrews and this tying into Spiritual maturity also in Hebrews and elsewhere. IOW, the one baptizing if understanding this can make the new & young Christian aware of the growth in Christ mandated for His Body and coach them through assessing what this entails to reach maturity and beyond. The death in Christ leading to life and abundant life....

Anyway, thought I'd ask.

 

[greenonions]

Paul and Silas were in a Roman jail. It was about midnight, and they had been praying and singing hymns to God. The other prisoners were listening to them. How much the jailer actually heard is uncertain because he was asleep when an earthquake shook the foundations of the prison and “immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed.” When he woke up, he saw that all of the doors were open and he thought all of the prisoners had escaped. Roman law demanded that if you were given a prisoner to guard and you let that prisoner escape, it was your life for his; you would be killed. So the jailer drew his sword and was about to kill himself, but Paul called out and said, “ Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.” Then the jailer asked Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved. Before we look at Paul’s answer, let’s notice some things that Paul did NOT say.

Paul did NOT say, “ You don’t have to do anything; God has already done it all.” But that is what men tell people today. Neither did Paul say, “Just repeat the sinner’s prayer and you will be saved.” That is a very popular answer to that question today; again from MEN not God).

Remember that this jailer was a Roman; if he was religious at all he would have Been an idolater. He was a pagan. He knew nothing about Jesus Christ—a Jew who had lived 6000 miles away. He didn’t know who Jesus was or anything about Him. Cold he have heard of Jesus? Possibly, but then Paul would not have had to “speak the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house”, which is what the very next verse (32) says. There was no way the Jailer could have been saved at the moment Paul told him to believe. He didn’t know who or what to believe in until he heard what Paul had to say. This verse (31) is used erroneously to teach “faith only” salvation. But a close examination shows that he could not have had faith in Christ at that moment—before he had even known there was a Christ.

So what happened after Paul taught him the “word of the Lord?” He “bore the fruit of repentance” Matthew 3:8, when he took Paul and Silas and “washed their stripes” where they had been beaten by the Roman officials, and IMMEDIATELY, he and all his family were baptized. Here we have someone again, like the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8) who was taught the gospel of Christ and somehow they all IMMEDIATELY, want to be baptized. How could they know about baptism and why want to be baptized immediately? It had to have been in the teaching that Phillip did in Acts 8 and the teaching that Paul did to the Jailer. In Acts 16. The earthquake happened at midnight. Then Paul taught him the “word of the Lord”— we don’t know how long that took but I can’t imagine he only spent a few minutes telling him about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, in addition to the man Jesus, faith, and baptism. Then, the Jailer “washed their stripes”. It must have been in the wee hours of the morning by this time. Why insist on being baptized IMMEDIATELY, if baptism is not necessary for salvation? Why even teach about it in the wee hours of the night? They could have easily put it off to a more convenient time—even the next day. These are all questions that need to be given thought and study.


Men today tell people that baptism is not necessary and that you don’t have to be baptized to be saved. But that is not the picture we get from the Bible, both in examples, as in the conversion of the eunuch, the jailer, Saul of Tarsus, and the Jews on Pentecost; and in the commands that we read in the Bible like Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, and Acts 22:16.

There is one last part of this story that is very important and very “telling.” Read verse 34; after his baptism, the jailer “ rejoiced, having BELIEVED in God with all his household.” This proves that there is MORE to “Believe in the Lord and you shall be saved,” than just “faith”.

IN VERSE 30, the jailer asked “what shall I do to be saved?”
IN VERSE 31, Paul says “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.”
IN VERSE 32, “ They spoke the word of the Lord to him”
IN VERSE 33, he showed evidence of repentance and was baptized.
IN VERSE 34, “He rejoiced HAVING BELIEVED IN GOD”.

And now you know the “rest of the story.” This is the WHOLE story of how the jailer was saved. Beware of men who would tell you a DIFFERENT story of the jailer’s salvation.

Jesus commanded us to be baptized, so we should be baptized when we believe. I'm sure you agree that people who do not believe and yet are baptized are not saved. You are likely aware of a common practice of delaying baptism until the baptiser has some confidence that the applicant for baptism truly believes. I've heard that part of the motivation is to prevent giving people false assurance of salvation if they do not believe and yet are baptized. Yet, it does seem at odds with the practice of the early church.

Consider also that the 12 apostles may never have been baptized in water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But they were baptized by the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 1:5). I'll concede that the Scriptures are silent on this point, but it seems like Jesus did not baptize people in water (John 4:2) and I don't see the apostles baptizing one another with water. In other words, it is possible that the 12 apostles were not baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and yet have the Holy Spirit and are saved.

 

[HeIsHere]

5. Jesus is telling them "[work] for the food that endures to aeonous life, which the Son of Man will give to you... This is the work of God". Jesus is telling them that the effort God wants them to put in is not following Jesus around merely to fill their own bellies, but it is following Him around to listen attentively the word of God, so that they might believe in the one God sent, since that is how they will be saved. We are saved by grace through faith which comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Agree and agree!
This is excellent

What it meant to the primary audience the first consideration always.

 

[HeIsHere]

just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

Absolutely agree!

I wonder if a person waits a period of three months before being baptized..... what are they exactly in that interim period .....saved... not saved, quasi saved?

 

[HeIsHere]

Depends.
How many rewards in Heaven do you want?

Being saved is a Gift, but eternal rewards can be earned through good works.

Exactly... not every verse in scripture pertains to spiritual salvation, we are being told other things sometimes.

 

[lrs68]

Exactly... not every verse in scripture pertains to spiritual salvation, we are being told other things sometimes.

Amen

 

[mailmandan]

Absolutely agree!

I wonder if a person waits a period of three months before being baptized..... what are they exactly in that interim period .....saved... not saved, quasi saved?

Whether three days, three weeks or three months: John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Beckworth]

Whether three days, three weeks or three months: John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mark 16:16- “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that does not believe shall be condemned.” I think Jesus credited us with enough common sense to understand that if a person does not believe , there is no way he is going to be baptized! Why would he be baptized in the name of Jesus when he doesn’t even believe in Jesus!? That’s foolishness!

It’s like saying, “ He that eats food and digests it shall live; but he that does not eat food shall die. Do you need someone to tell you that the person that does not eat food and does not digest the food that he did not eat shall die? Are you going to argue that that man will not die because the second part of the sentence left out the part about him not digesting food? I Think God thought it would be so obvious that he did not have to say, “He that does not believe and is not baptized shall be condemned.” It is enough that a person does not believe. That is enough to condemn him; especially since faith is the first step to repenting and confessing. If a person is not going to believe, why would you try to get him to repent? Or confess? Or be “baptized”? It would do no good because he doesn’t believe. Is that so difficult to understand? It seems silly to argu that baptism is not necessary because it was not stated in the 2nd part of what Jesus said. It was not necessary to state it. It is common sense.

The first part of the verse is what you should be concerned with. What did Jesus, the Son of God, say would save us? Faith + baptism = salvation. Jesus put salvation AFTER baptism, not BEFORE IT.

Acts 8:36 the eunuch asked Phillip, “Here is water ; what hinders me from being baptized?” Pay close attention to Phillip’s answer : “ If you believe, you may.” Baptism is for “BELIEVERS.” You won’t find unbelievers being baptized ANYWHERE in the Bible. I am amazed that this needs explaining. Of all the arguments against baptism that I have ever heard, I think this is the weakest.

 

[Inquisitor]

Thank you:

An accurate post, well done.

The water baptism of John was fulfilled by Jesus with the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 3:11
“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I,
and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

A simple text that everyone can read.

 

[HeIsHere]

Surely you jest. It depends on what God desires and determines for everyone in coming to believe Jesus is YHWH's Christ/King. See post #103 and #106 particularly to what Jesus is commanding in John6:27.

Then there's the discussion of what God expects of all His Children whom He created in righteousness and holiness for good works.

Now why would I jest.

Good works never have and never will save anyone.

I think @PaulThomson puts it into the correct perspective by looking at the primary audience.

#111

5. Jesus is telling them "[work] for the food that endures to aeonous life, which the Son of Man will give to you... This is the work of God". Jesus is telling them that the effort God wants them to put in is not following Jesus around merely to fill their own bellies, but it is following Him around to listen attentively the word of God, so that they might believe in the one God sent, since that is how they will be saved. We are saved by grace through faith which comes by hearing nd hearing by the word of God.

 

[mailmandan]

Mark 16:16- “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that does not believe shall be condemned.” I think Jesus credited us with enough common sense to understand that if a person does not believe , there is no way he is going to be baptized! Why would he be baptized in the name of Jesus when he doesn’t even believe in Jesus!? That’s foolishness!

Now if a person did not believe in the existence of Jesus and that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus did not happen, then common sense would say there is no way he is going to be baptized. BUT saving belief in Jesus goes beyond mere "mental assent" belief in Jesus and sadly, there have been numerous folks over the years who have been water baptized (especially in various false religions and cults that claim to be Christian) yet merely believe "mental assent" in historical facts about Jesus, including that His death, burial and resurrection "happened" BUT fall short of believing in Jesus unto salvation by failing to trust in His death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Instead, these folks trust in works for salvation (with a heavy emphasis on water baptism) instead of trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) These folks then go on to be water baptized because they believe it will save them.

Speaking of foolishness: 1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Sadly, there have been numerous folks over the years (especially from various false religions and cults) who profess to be Christians and believe in certain facts about Jesus including that His death, burial and resurrection "happened," BUT acknowledging Him as Lord is mere lip service (Matthew 7:22-23) and their belief falls short of trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Instead of believing in/placing faith in/trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation, these folks are trusting in their works for salvation (with baptism at the top of their list).

It’s like saying, “ He that eats food and digests it shall live; but he that does not eat food shall die. Do you need someone to tell you that the person that does not eat food and does not digest the food that he did not eat shall die? Are you going to argue that that man will not die because the second part of the sentence left out the part about him not digesting food? I Think God thought it would be so obvious that he did not have to say, “He that does not believe and is not baptized shall be condemned.” It is enough that a person does not believe.

Actually, it's like saying, "he who takes his medication and washes it down with water will be made well." Of course, it's not the washing it down with water part that makes a person well. It's the medication, but if water is not available and the person takes the medication dry (been there, done that) they will still be made well "because of the medication." It logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe and are saved, yet Jesus clarified the first clause of Mark 16:16 with the second clause, "but he who does not believe will be condemned." Nothing there about a lack of baptism causing condemnation and baptism is not even mentioned in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). *Hermeneutics.

That is enough to condemn him; especially since faith is the first step to repenting and confessing.

You merely see faith as a step to salvation? Even after the Bible states in multiple passages of Scripture that salvation is through faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15 etc..) Repentance actually "precedes" faith (Acts 20:21) but you have that backwards. Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. Repentance is not a work for salvation that comes after faith. Confession is a confirmation of faith and is not a work for salvation that comes after one believes unto righteousness and the word of faith is in our mouth and heart TOGETHER (Romans 10:8-10) so faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together.

 

[mailmandan]

Beckworth said: If a person is not going to believe, why would you try to get him to repent? Or confess? Or be “baptized”?

If a person does not believe at all, hence is an atheist, then you need to work on getting that person to believe in the existence of God before you could convince them to believe anything further about Jesus, redemption etc..

It would do no good because he doesn’t believe. Is that so difficult to understand?

Oh, I understand more than you think. What you don't understand is the difference between mere "mental assent" belief and saving belief in Jesus. Folks in the CoC seem to believe that ALL belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot grasp a deeper faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. I have even heard CoC preachers teach that our belief is no different than the belief of demons in James 2:19 except that the demons lack necessary good works.

It seems silly to argue that baptism is not necessary because it was not stated in the 2nd part of what Jesus said.

It's not silly at all. Especially when the second clause clarifies the first clause with but he who does not believe will be condemned and Jesus did not even mention baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 and believes "apart from additions or modifications" is connected with receiving eternal life in those verses. What happened to baptism?

It was not necessary to state it. It is common sense.

Common sense, the spirit of the world, wisdom of this world etc.. "apart from the Spirit of God" can only take you so far when it comes to understanding the things that come from the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 2:11-14)

The first part of the verse is what you should be concerned with.

So, you simply isolate the first half of Mark 16:16 and ignore the second half, along with ignoring what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. That is flawed hermeneutics. You should be concerned about that. You need to stop cherry picking Scripture and read it all in order to get the BIG PICTURE.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned" but the Bible does say, "believe or condemned."

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What did Jesus, the Son of God, say would save us? Faith + baptism = salvation. Jesus put salvation AFTER baptism, not BEFORE IT.

If according to Jesus, he who believes will be saved (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well, so your argument biased and inconclusive. Where did Jesus put salvation after baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26?

Acts 8:36 the eunuch asked Phillip, “Here is water ; what hinders me from being baptized?” Pay close attention to Phillip’s answer : “ If you believe, you may.” Baptism is for “BELIEVERS.”

Baptism is for believers. Genuine believers and not make believers. Now keep reading in verse 37 - Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” See John 20:31 - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. The eunuch believed unto salvation before baptism.

You won’t find unbelievers being baptized ANYWHERE in the Bible.

Simon the sorcerer is said to have “believed and was baptized” at the preaching of Philip (Acts 8:13) but later, when Simon offers the apostles money to have their ability to impart the Holy Spirit (verses 18–19), he is rebuked by Peter. Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity. (verses 20-24) Would you call that a saved, genuine believer? Even though we read that Simon "believed," the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief: "the miracles and signs which were done." No saving belief in Christ.

In Acts 19, Paul came upon some disciples of John the Baptist and asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed, which reflects Paul's uncertainty of their spiritual status and the answer to Paul's question, “we have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit” which reveals they did not yet believe in Jesus Christ unto salvation or receive the Holy Spirit. Paul further asked, "into what then were you baptized? They said, “into John’s baptism.” Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” When they heard this, they were afterwards baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. There would have been no need to re-baptize them if they had already believed in Jesus Christ unto salvation. These disciples of John needed further instructions to become authentic believers in Christ Jesus that results in salvation. They finally did receive the Holy Spirit after Paul laid hands on them (which is the exception, not the rule in every case of conversion, as in Acts 2 and Acts 10).

I am amazed that this needs explaining.

I'm not amazed about your confusion. Been there, done that, so I get it.

Of all the arguments against baptism that I have ever heard, I think this is the weakest.

Of all of the arguments I have ever heard, I think your argument is the weakest. So, you actually believe that EVERYONE throughout history who ever received water baptism (including folks in false religions and cults that claim to be Christian) were GENUINE believers who were ALL saved? If you can believe that then you can believe anything! I personally know several people who (prior to their conversion) had previously attended churches that taught a false gospel, and these people (including my wife and myself) were water baptized in those churches, yet we did not yet fully understand the gospel or what it truly meant to believe the gospel. Later we all received water baptism as genuine believers this time, AFTER we finally came to truly believe the gospel. You must really be naive.

 

[HeIsHere]

Whether three days, three weeks or three months: John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Amen!

Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation.
To make it such, is an attack on the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
1 Cor 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.