The conversion of the Philippian Jailer in Acts 16.

[studier]

I did not realize that I was disagreeing with Thayer's.

I thought you might have missed it as the link you provided did not seem to expand to view the whole of Thayer's.

Not according to Scripture.

Agree.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means to complete like love in 1 John 4:18, in regard to maturity. It does not mean that Abraham's faith remained incomplete to save him in Genesis 15:6 (when his faith was accounted to him for righteousness) until many years later, after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. It also does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar many years later in Genesis 22 either.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

I like what you said about maturity in your 2nd paragraph above. It matches the word in the verse typically used to speak of maturity.

I retain a few concerns about the view that initial faith in all cases is sufficient to save since Authentic Faith grows and does works, and salvation is a bigger topic than initial justification.

I also think we're pushing the language a bit to have to make justified mean "show" (or such) in James2:21, 24. I do see and know your points re: God being justified, etc. But for one among a few things, I also see Abraham being tested in the sacrificing of his son (Heb11:17) and testing not just proving/showing righteousness - testing can also result in failure - but in a sense to pass a test or tests can also be seen to result in vindication/declaration of righteousness/justification in the test. IOW, to be proven is not that much different than to be deemed righteous.

Also, the wording in 2:18 is active - the person actively shows/gives evidence/proof from/as a result of his works and in 2:21, 24 as a result of his works (under testing) Abraham was deemed righteous (passive vs. actively showing/proving). We can look at this passive a bit in the way we translate it, but what or who justifying other than God (the one testing Abraham) is that meaningful?

Thanks for the responses.

 

[mailmandan]

A few translations:

27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." (Jn. 6:27-29 NKJ)

27 Do not work for the food that disappears, but for the food that remains to eternal life– the food which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has put his seal of approval on him." 28 So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?" 29 Jesus replied, "This is the deed God requires– to believe in the one whom he sent." (Jn. 6:27-29 NET)

27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." 28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." (Jn. 6:27-29 ESV)

Some questions for you and anyone else who'd like to answer:

1. Is Jesus talking with believers or unbelievers?
2. What did Jesus tell - actually command - them to do in 6:27?
3. Do you have a preference for one of the translations or another one - which one?
4. You say the Jews were taking a legalistic approach in 6:28. Note the different translations of their question.
   1. What exactly are they asking Jesus?
   2. Why are they asking Jesus the question?
5. You say Jesus' answer in 6:29 is a play on words. Note the different translations of their question.
   1. What exactly is Jesus telling them?

Thanks.

In John 6:27, Jesus tells them to not labor for the food that perishes but labor for the food that endures to eternal life, but the people misunderstood Jesus' statement and asked Him what they must do to work the works of God. Jesus replied to them that the work God is that they believe in Jesus in whom He has sent. Jesus previously told them in verse 26 - you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

 

[studier]

In John 6:27, Jesus tells them to not labor for the food that perishes but labor for the food that endures to eternal life, but the people misunderstood Jesus' statement and asked Him what they must do to work the works of God. Jesus replied to them that the work God is that they believe in Jesus in whom He has sent. Jesus previously told them in verse 26 - you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

Yes, that's basically what the verses say.

When Jesus says this: ESV John 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."

Hasn't Jesus just commanded unbelievers to work for the food which remains for eternal life which Jesus will give them? It seems clear that's what He says.​

​

Isn't this what prompted them to ask Jesus in 6:28 what to do to work the works [of] God - or as the NET translated to work the works God requires?​

​

What does Jesus mean in 6:29 by: "this is the work [of] God, that you believe..."?

Your belief is God's work?​

​

Your work God requires is to believe?​

​

The translators are attempting to translate the [of] which can be translated many ways which is why the NET is translating as "requires".​

Even though it may seem harsh to our ears (which Jesus later deals with in John6) this is what He says:

​

Work for the food that remains into/for eternal life.​

What do we do to work the work of/for/required by/etc. God?​

The work of/for/required by/etc. God is that you believe.​

​

Most of us don't see Paul and Jesus in opposition. I don't rewrite Jesus or see Him speaking figuratively or doing word plays. I see them speaking about work differently.

You?

 

[HeIsHere]

James 2:24- “…not by faith only.(alone).

How many works are required?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

John 6:29 says the work of God is to believe into Christ. It requires work to deny the longings of our nature and believe into Christ, it doesn't happen without our willful participation and work.

Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of GOD, that you believe into (εἰς eis) the one that one sent. John 6:29​

​

G1519 εἰς eis (eis) prep.
1. into or to (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time.

 

[studier]

John 6:29 says the work of God is to believe into Christ. It requires work to deny the longings of our nature and believe into Christ, it doesn't happen without our willful participation and work.

Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of GOD, that you believe into (εἰς eis) the one that one sent. John 6:29​

​

G1519 εἰς eis (eis) prep.
1. into or to (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time.

View attachment 272757

As I recall John always uses this preposition to speak of believing into. Translators will typically say believe in but IMO John is specifying this transition that takes place from outside into inside (en). I have this spatial diagram of prepositions imprinted in my mind and almost always draw from it. Thanks for positing!

I like what you've said about the work it takes. I think we can see the practicality of what Jesus is dealing with in John6 when He commands unbelievers to work for the food that remains into (eis) eternal life.

Practically speaking we can just look at the context. These unbelievers are following Jesus around the earth, across the sea, etc. He's just telling them all their work/effort needs to be redirected to be given the spiritual food He's teaching that lasts into/for (goal) eternal life which He gives.

Later He speaks of hearing and learning from the Father.

I've always been put back by all this interpretive theological talk that there is no effort/work in even our ease of traveling then the effort/work of listening/hearing/learning Christ and in many doing the reasoning, heart searching, overcoming contrary thoughts, etc., involved in coming to believe Jesus is the Christ/King to who we all must submit. Some grow up in this teaching. Many do not. Imagine what it was like for these physically hungry unbelievers to be following Him around, thousands of them, and then having to have their mentality shifted to spiritual needs from physical needs.

Thanks for the post. The diagram is a great tool for studying many topics. There is a wealth of detail in these prepositions. And then there are also figurative meanings to get a handle on...

 

[studier]

How many works are required?

Or how much work is required? Depends.

 

[HeIsHere]

Or how much work is required? Depends.

Depends on what... where your quota stands?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I like what you've said about the work it takes. I think we can see the practicality of what Jesus is dealing with in John6 when He commands unbelievers to work for the food that remains into (eis) eternal life.

And just as the Israelites had to work to gather their daily manna in the wilderness, so we too have to labor daily to gather the hidden manna coming down out of heaven, ie, the true bread of life.

Let the one having an ear hear what the spirit is saying to the assemblies. I will be giving to the one conquering the hidden manna. And I will be giving to him a white pebble; and a new name written upon the pebble, which no one knows except the one receiving. Revelation 2:17​

​

 

[studier]

Depends on what... where your quota stands?

Surely you jest. It depends on what God desires and determines for everyone in coming to believe Jesus is YHWH's Christ/King. See post #103 and #106 particularly to what Jesus is commanding in John6:27.

Then there's the discussion of what God expects of all His Children whom He created in righteousness and holiness for good works.

 

[PaulThomson]

A few translations:

27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." (Jn. 6:27-29 NKJ)

27 Do not work for the food that disappears, but for the food that remains to eternal life– the food which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has put his seal of approval on him." 28 So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?" 29 Jesus replied, "This is the deed God requires– to believe in the one whom he sent." (Jn. 6:27-29 NET)

27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." 28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." (Jn. 6:27-29 ESV)

Some questions for you and anyone else who'd like to answer:

1. Is Jesus talking with believers or unbelievers?
2. What did Jesus tell - actually command - them to do in 6:27?
3. Do you have a preference for one of the translations or another one - which one?
4. You say the Jews were taking a legalistic approach in 6:28. Note the different translations of their question.
   1. What exactly are they asking Jesus?
   2. Why are they asking Jesus the question?
5. You say Jesus' answer in 6:29 is a play on words. Note the different translations of their question.
   1. What exactly is Jesus telling them?

Thanks.

1. Jesus is talking to unbelievers who had traipsed around the lake to get to Jesus in the hopes of getting more food for their bellies.
2. Jesus told them to change the focus of their efforts away from pursuing Him to get perishable food, and instead to pursue Him to get spiritual food Jesus was dispensing, God's word, that can produce aeonous life.
3. I don't like any of the translations. There are two koinE Greek words that may be translated "that": hoti and hina.
hoti is a relative pronoun that introduces a subject or object clause. e.g. It is the truth that I am a Christian. "I am a Christian is a clause that is the complement of "the truth."
hina, on the other hand, introduces an intentional or consequential clause, and means that, so that, in order that. e.g. I became a Christian that/so that/in order that (intention) I might live my life as God's friend." Or, I was so impressed by the gospel that (consequence) I became a Christian.

Now, the kionE Greek word used in v. 29 is not hoti, but hina. IMHO, the correct translation of the passage should be as follows.

27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but [work] for the food that endures to aeonous life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." 28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, in order that (hina) you might believe (pisteusEte: subjunctive aorist) in him whom he has sent."

4.

1. They are asking Jesus what they the works are that God requires of them.​

2. They are asking because Jesus seems to be changing the Mosaic Law away from what they have been traditionally taught the Moseaic Law was requiring of them.​

​

5. Jesus is telling them "[work] for the food that endures to aeonous life, which the Son of Man will give to you... This is the work of God". Jesus is telling them that the effort God wants them to put in is not following Jesus around merely to fill their own bellies, but it is following Him around to listen attentively the word of God, so that they might believe in the one God sent, since that is how they will be saved. We are saved by grace through faith which comes by hearing nd hearing by the word of God.

I think in John translators have played fast and loose with the translation of hoti and hina, not just here but elsewhere, in order to make the text seem to more clearly teach their preferred theology, rather than translating hoti and hina consistently to preserve the distinction in meaning between the two.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In John 3, When Jesus said we must be born of water and the Spirit,, He was talking about a spiritual new birth —not a physical one. This harmonizes perfectly with Acts 2:38 where Peter told them that they must be (water) baptized to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Those 3000 Jews were re-born spiritually by “water” and “the Spirit.” As Roman’s 6 says they rose out of the watery grave of baptism to “walk in NEWNESS OF LIFE.”

notice we’re baptized in Jesus name

“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: and there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

notice only Jesus receives the Holy Ghost when he’s baptized before he died and rose


“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( water )

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( spirit )

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭

But it’s not because we get baptized that we receive the spirit. it’s because we believe the gospel .

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.( spirit ) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

….Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44, 46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus had no sin he was baptized so we can be baptized in his name who had no sin and died for our sins And have our sins remitted in his death and a new life given in his resurrection.

We aren’t saved by baptism but it’s part of Gods plan of our redemption remission of our sins in Jesus death and new life on his resurrection

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

….knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin……

….. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6, 11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Baptism has real important has real meaning if we accept it

 

[studier]

1. Jesus is talking to unbelievers who had traipsed around the lake to get to Jesus in the hopes of getting more food for their bellies.
2. Jesus told them to change the focus of their efforts away from pursuing Him to get perishable food, and instead to pursue Him to get spiritual food Jesus was dispensing, God's word, that can produce aeonous life.
3. I don't like any of the translations. There are two koinE Greek words that may be translated "that": hoti and hina.
hoti is a relative pronoun that introduces a subject or object clause. e.g. It is the truth that I am a Christian. "I am a Christian is a clause that is the complement of "the truth."
hina, on the other hand, introduces an intentional or consequential clause, and means that, so that, in order that. e.g. I became a Christian that/so that/in order that (intention) I might live my life as God's friend." Or, I was so impressed by the gospel that (consequence) I became a Christian.

Now, the kionE Greek word used in v. 29 is not hoti, but hina. IMHO, the correct translation of the passage should be as follows.

27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but [work] for the food that endures to aeonous life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." 28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, in order that (hina) you might believe (pisteusEte: subjunctive aorist) in him whom he has sent."

4.

1. They are asking Jesus what they the works are that God requires of them.​

2. They are asking because Jesus seems to be changing the Mosaic Law away from what they have been traditionally taught the Moseaic Law was requiring of them.​

​

5. Jesus is telling them "[work] for the food that endures to aeonous life, which the Son of Man will give to you... This is the work of God". Jesus is telling them that the effort God wants them to put in is not following Jesus around merely to fill their own bellies, but it is following Him around to listen attentively the word of God, so that they might believe in the one God sent, since that is how they will be saved. We are saved by grace through faith which comes by hearing nd hearing by the word of God.

I think in John translators have played fast and loose with the translation of hoti and hina, not just here but elsewhere, in order to make the text seem to more clearly teach their preferred theology, rather than translating hoti and hina consistently to preserve the distinction in meaning between the two.

Interesting. Thank you. You and I have discussed these conjunctions before, and I was unconvinced of your views. So, to clarify a few things:

1. Touto is pointing back to what Jesus had already commanded them = to work for the food that lasts for eternal life He will give them.
2. The hina clause is telling them what the intent or consequence or intended consequence, etc. of their work (effort) is - to believe into-eis Him.
3. As I said, interesting interpretation. It certainly changes a few things. My first observation is that we might consider how to smooth out the hina translation and possibly the touto to make it clearer. I'll give it some thought. Again, thanks for your thinking.

So, it seems you have no issue with the fact that Jesus is commanding some work/effort on the part if unbelievers to come to belief in Him. I was following some of what you were saying on the Election thread about the errant and illogical views being stated there. I left you a few "Informative" emojis to let you know. I'll look again to see if you've continued.

It seems to me you may be in agreement to some degree with what I said in #106 above. If so, then you may be one of the only ones to ever respond positively to such. The works salvation pendulum has been pushed too far IMO to the point where we can't even take Jesus' command to do proper work to come to Him. Any comments?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The work of God is believng into Christ

Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of GOD, that you believe into whom that one sent. John 6:29​

​

This is how we do it

And beside this, giving all diligence, provide to your faith excellence; and to excellence knowledge; And to knowledge self-control; and to self-control patient endurance; and to patient endurance godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8​

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if you do these things, you shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be abundantly ministered to you into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:10-11​

 

[mailmandan]

Very good point! Those who believe in salvation BEFORE BAPTISM should read Romans 6.

Roman’s 6:6 explains that it’s the “old man of sin” that was crucified with Him. That’s why we are raised to a NEW life. It’s not burying a “live” man—it’s burying a man “dead” in his sins. We were buried into his death, crucified with him, “that the body of sin might be done away.” “That we should no longer be slaves of sin.” The new man that is raised to walk in newness of life is the LIVE man. The old sinful man is baptized into His death (verse 3) where we are “crucified” with Him (verse 6), that’s where our sins are done away, we “died with Christ (verses 8). We are “dead to sin” ( verse 11) and just like Christ was raised from the dead, we also are raised from baptism to walk in a new life. Verse 5. verse 17 says we “obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered, and having been set free from sin…”. Again this passage agrees with every other scripture that teaches baptism saves us.

In regard to Romans 6, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/romans-6.html

So, the old man of sin being crucified with Him, and the new man being raised to walk in newness of life is signified but not procured in water baptism. No verse in Scripture teaches that we are literally saved by water baptism or that whoever is not baptized will not be saved. Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith (not baptism) is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1) That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death and resurrection, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification) and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by faith, not baptism. In regard to Romans 6:17, nothing here is mentioned about baptism. Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by faith."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.

In Romans 6:16, there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense: servants of sin unto death and servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation/place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation (Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 5:1) we then become servants of obedience unto righteousness.

Being servants of sin is put in the "past tense." Romans 6:18 - You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

 

[mailmandan]

I've always found this verse interesting. Note the different translations especially when considering what baptism may include:

NKJ 1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

NET 1 Peter 3:21 And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you– not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God– through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

ESV 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

NAS 1 Peter 3:21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Thoughts?

In Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by/signified in the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household--which is a type of Christ). *The context reveals that only the righteous (Noah and his family) were dry and therefore safe. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contract with the water and they all perished.

 

[mailmandan]

Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no symbol/picture.

A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

 

[TrustandObey]

GRACE! GRACE! WONDERFUL GRACE!

Did you copy that from a bumper sticker?

 

[TrustandObey]

Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no symbol/picture.

A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

Baptism is an action much like repentance and faith. It is not a symbol.

A man and a woman become united by physically acting upon the requirements of marriage (vows), without that physical act the marriage does not exist.

Baptism is that signed and witnessed marriage contract, without it you are like the person lacking the proper wedding garment.

Matthew 22:11-13
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Baptism is certainly not a symbol of salvation as you have stated.

 

[mailmandan]

Baptism is an action much like repentance and faith. It is not a symbol.

A man and a woman become united by physically acting upon the requirements of marriage (vows), without that physical act the marriage does not exist.

Baptism is that signed and witnessed marriage contract, without it you are like the person lacking the proper wedding garment.

Matthew 22:11-13
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Baptism is certainly not a symbol of salvation as you have stated.

We disagree. Once again, a man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.