Applying God's Word to Politics

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Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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I don't. But a covenant is instituted and can be referred to in language such as "The Institution of the New Covenant". Also, as far as I think we're concerned as Christians, didn't God institute covenants?



God established Divine Institutions which men attempt to modify.



The Divine Institution of marriage between the man and the woman was established in the beginning by God. So, Christians have fought to protect the Divine Institution of Marriage as God instituted it and have fought politically to protect it.

You're describing the altered institution of man and included is the contractual/covenantal agreement for the institution of man.

Men are copying God in forming institutions and covenants. This can't make an institution an Institution (note the capitalization and keep it in mind - my intended meaning is Divine Institution).



We can apply your light and eisegete your point or we can see how your light is not Light and find you wrong.

I assume you're speaking of the KOG vs. terrestrial rule in the sense of godly vs. ungodly or Christian vs. non-Christian. Is all non-Christian art ungodly? Same question for business, commerce, education. Every non-Christian institution entraps people who work in them or makes them function in ungodly ways?

Question: Do you hold citizenship in the US? If yes, do you vote?



Which again reveals you know very little about institutions and Christians who both work in many and head many of them which have been instituted to do godly work.
Institution is a legal term. Covenant is personal. That's where your reasoning goes off the rails. If the two are the same, then why the need for a different word.

This isn't nuanced stuff; straining a gnat kinda etc. The words aren't even phonetically similar. The reason they are different is because their foundations are different. In essence they are unrelated.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Institution is a legal term. Covenant is personal. That's where your reasoning goes off the rails. If the two are the same, then why the need for a different word.

This isn't nuanced stuff; straining a gnat kinda etc. The words aren't even phonetically similar. The reason they are different is because their foundations are different. In essence they are unrelated.

Still way off, but no more than expected at this point.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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Isn't that just like every one of us in this godless indoctrination that has been forced upon us and our fathers? The quote was no comparison at all,
The quote was even MORE than a comparison; it was an equivocal statement, as it actually made Civil Liberty EQUAL to Christianity.
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles… This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government."

Saying "nuh uh", and then adding an unhappy circuitous screed HAS NO MAGICAL POWER TO NEGATE WHAT YOU WROTE IN BLACK AND WHITE.


I even looked up the full quote, just to make sure I had the full quote in context.
The full quote makes MY point even more clear, as it lists a string of virtues found in civil liberty, and expressly says THIS IS CHRISTIANITY... claiming civil liberty, because of particular virtues, IS Christianity.
But it is not.


Conclusion:
- Civil Liberty is NOT Christianity, as the quote claims.
- You can have civil liberty, and not be a Christian at all... so it's not the same.
- Civil liberty is wonderful, but it's not the same as Christianity: Christianity existed before civil liberties, and will still exist if those liberties disappear.
- We can still have Christianity with no civil liberties at all... as history shows.




.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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The quote was even MORE than a comparison; it was an equivocal statement, as it actually made Civil Liberty EQUAL to Christianity.
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles… This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government."

Saying "nuh uh", and then adding an unhappy circuitous screed HAS NO MAGICAL POWER TO NEGATE WHAT YOU WROTE IN BLACK AND WHITE.


I even looked up the full quote, just to make sure I had the full quote in context.
The full quote makes MY point even more clear, as it lists a string of virtues found in civil liberty, and expressly says THIS IS CHRISTIANITY... claiming civil liberty, because of particular virtues, IS Christianity.
But it is not.


Conclusion:
- Civil Liberty is NOT Christianity, as the quote claims.
- You can have civil liberty, and not be a Christian at all... so it's not the same.
- Civil liberty is wonderful, but it's not the same as Christianity: Christianity existed before civil liberties, and will still exist if those liberties disappear.
- We can still have Christianity with no civil liberties at all... as history shows.




.
While Christianity and civil liberties may not be the same, they may coincide.
And civil liberty may be due to salting and enlightening by the KOG, as our history shows.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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While Christianity and civil liberties may not be the same, they may coincide.
And civil liberty may be due to salting and enlightening by the KOG, as our history shows.
I completely agree.
I was just responding to a specific quote, which said a specific thing.

Have a great week.
.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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I completely agree.
I was just responding to a specific quote, which said a specific thing.

Have a great week.
.
Good deal. Did you see J6er Jake Lange's testimony on RAV's Warroom program yesterday?

It was a good example of how his faith in Christ helped him endure prison after he was arrested for trying to rescue Rosanne Boyland from being killed by the Capitol Police.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,779
2,825
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Good deal. Did you see J6er Jake Lange's testimony on RAV's Warroom program yesterday?

It was a good example of how his faith in Christ helped him endure prison after he was arrested for trying to rescue Rosanne Boyland from being killed by the Capitol Police.
We should all focus more on our walk with Christ.
Hopefully it won't take calamity to draw us closer to God.
.
.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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You were correct to say that resources affect discerning what is right. We cannot multiply them miraculously.

I also have in mind whether the person needs help through no fault of their own. We see an example of this playing out in California, where Trump is demanding that citizens begin directing water from the north to fill reservoirs in the south for resources to put out fires before he thinks they will deserve federal aid.
Two more thoughts on this topic:

1. The basic sin of illegal immigration is cutting in line, a form of stealing.

2. A major reason folks want to immigrate is because their own governments are corrupt with the elite exploiting the lower classes, who need to stay and reject such tyranny--as recently happened in Syria.
 

PAC-fit

Active member
Sep 20, 2018
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I find the precept fits
Not a good practice
Why not? He scribes on the heart to be rightly divided.
Not sure what you mean.
If that’s a gotcha, you’re right. He scribes on the ‘’mind’’ (Heb 10:16), not heart. As for the ‘’rightly divided’’, or accurate handling of the WOG, I concluded was an applicable precept to be exercised within a country's lawful borders. "I was a stranger, and you took Me in.'' (Mt 25:35)
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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If that’s a gotcha, you’re right. He scribes on the ‘’mind’’ (Heb 10:16), not heart. As for the ‘’rightly divided’’, or accurate handling of the WOG I concluded was an applicable precept to be exercised within a country's lawful borders. "I was a stranger, and you took Me in.'' (Mt 25:35)
No gotcha intended. I have a bit of difficulty understanding what you mean at times and don't like to take it for granted I do understand.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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A major political news item currently is the crashing of the helicopter into the airliner.
How can GW be applied to this event?
By understanding that the end of the world for each of us may happen when we least expect it (MT 24:36-44).
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Australia
Church and state should always be seperate.

The church beliefs should not be enforced by state powers.

The religious morals should not be forced on people. Some morals are universal like killing and stealing. The law of liberty results in freedom.

But laws like ..... we all need to stop using petrol because God is not happy with the pollution.... or you all need to go to the church closest to your house.
And enforce the laws with penalties is wrong.

This is what the Catholic church did in the dark ages ... they forced people to obey the Catholic Doctrines and killed millions of people that didn't obey.

We need to obey God because we love Him not because the government forces us.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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We need to obey God because we love Him not because the government forces us.
God commands us not to murder. God established human government that enforces some of His commandments such as don't murder. IMO it's a good thing the state can capitally punish some who do not love God.

Yes, there are some things to divide in law. This has been a discussion and debate for millennia.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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Church and state should always be seperate.

The church beliefs should not be enforced by state powers.

The religious morals should not be forced on people. Some morals are universal like killing and stealing. The law of liberty results in freedom.

But laws like ..... we all need to stop using petrol because God is not happy with the pollution.... or you all need to go to the church closest to your house.
And enforce the laws with penalties is wrong.

This is what the Catholic church did in the dark ages ... they forced people to obey the Catholic Doctrines and killed millions of people that didn't obey.

We need to obey God because we love Him not because the government forces us.
I agree with the general or overall meaning of what you posted, but I would like us to rightly divide it a little more specifically.

Church and state should be kept separate in the sense that Christians remain fallible sinners and so all human activity needs to be checked and balanced rather than ceded dictatorial and inquisitional powers. This truth is even more true of atheist activity, which seeks to become the established state religion, so it must be checked by Christians using political means, such as the MAGA movement.

Some morals are universal or implied by the logical Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Unfortunately, some people are so sinful that they must have even these golden morals enforced on them.

It is true that educating people about the need for civil laws such as protecting the environment is preferable to enforcing them with penalties, but again, some people are so selfish or perverse that they must be coerced for the sake of the common good.

Yes, there is no need for laws among folks who love God perfectly, but unfortunately perfection remains the lifelong goal for all of us--and many are not godly. Hence the need for government, hopefully along the lines of RM 13:3-5.
 

PAC-fit

Active member
Sep 20, 2018
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Yes, there is no need for laws among folks who love God perfectly, but unfortunately perfection remains the lifelong goal for all of us--and many are not godly. Hence the need for government, hopefully along the lines of RM 13:3-5.
In Acts 11:26, it mentions '', ,the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.'' Yet, in Rom.13, there remains a curious replacement of any Christian mentioned except for V-4s ''God's servant''. Are you of the same opinion as I that all of these servants mentioned ARE Christian due to the simple fact that,

''Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.'' (Rm 8:9) But then V-4 already said the servant is His. This would supercede the assertion of a mere member of God's civil order.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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In Acts 11:26, it mentions '', ,the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.'' Yet, in Rom.13, there remains a curious replacement of any Christian mentioned except for V-4s ''God's servant''. Are you of the same opinion as I that all of these servants mentioned ARE Christian due to the simple fact that,

''Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.'' (Rm 8:9) But then V-4 already said the servant is His. This would supercede the assertion of a mere member of God's civil order.
I had not considered the authorities mentioned in ACTS 13:1-4 to be Christians, especially since it apparently referred to the Romans, but I suppose that is possible these days when referring to policemen and soldiers, although dubious for Dems who are Marxists.
 

PAC-fit

Active member
Sep 20, 2018
362
115
43
In Acts 11:26, it mentions '', ,the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.'' Yet, in Rom.13, there remains a curious replacement of any Christian mentioned except for V-4s ''God's servant''. Are you of the same opinion as I that all of these servants mentioned ARE Christian due to the simple fact that,

''Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.'' (Rm 8:9) But then V-4 already said the servant is His. This would supercede the assertion of a mere member of God's civil order.
I had not considered the authorities mentioned in ACTS 13:1-4 to be Christians, especially since it apparently referred to the Romans, but I suppose that is possible these days when referring to policemen and soldiers, although dubious for Dems who are Marxists.
''I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind'' (Philemon 1:21) ''All'', so unpopular I get it.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,125
1,366
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Australia
God commands us not to murder. God established human government that enforces some of His commandments such as don't murder. IMO it's a good thing the state can capitally punish some who do not love God.

Yes, there are some things to divide in law. This has been a discussion and debate for millennia.
Good governments are there to protect people and there belongings..

The last 6 of the Ten Commandments are about love for each other and the government should protect us by enforcing the laws like not killing, not stealing, not lying, and not committing adultery etc... these laws don't need to interfere with religious liberty.

But we should be free the worship God according to our conscious.

We the need to seperate the church from the politics.

If the church dictates what is right and wrong it can be dangerous.

The catholic church killed millions in the dark ages because they controlled the government.

America was founded on the principal that there will be no king or pope..

No church controlling the government.