Understanding God’s election
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@Rufus The is another aspect of this text that militates against your thesis that coming to Jesus is equal to believing in Him. I see in the Greek text that "shall never hunger" and "shall never thirst" is actually in the subjunctive mood.
Subjunctive Mood: Explanation and Examples
Grammar Monster
https://www.grammar-monster.com › glossary › subjun...
The subjunctive mood is the verb form used to explore a hypothetical situation. It typically follows a wish, a demand, or a suggestion.
So, the more accurate translation of the verse is -
Jhn 6:35 "And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life: the one coming (erchomenos) to Me should never hunger; and the one believing on Me should never thirst.
Jesus does not give assurance that the one coming will certainly never hunger, but presents a probability which may or may not happen. The subjunctive leaves the possibility of the contrary to occur. If coming and believing were the same in Jesus' mind, he would use the indicative to indicate that all who come believe. But His word imply that some who come may not believe. Hence it makes no logical sense to argue that jesus is equating coming to believing.
Subjunctive Mood: Explanation and Examples
Grammar Monster
https://www.grammar-monster.com › glossary › subjun...
The subjunctive mood is the verb form used to explore a hypothetical situation. It typically follows a wish, a demand, or a suggestion.
So, the more accurate translation of the verse is -
Jhn 6:35 "And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life: the one coming (erchomenos) to Me should never hunger; and the one believing on Me should never thirst.
Jesus does not give assurance that the one coming will certainly never hunger, but presents a probability which may or may not happen. The subjunctive leaves the possibility of the contrary to occur. If coming and believing were the same in Jesus' mind, he would use the indicative to indicate that all who come believe. But His word imply that some who come may not believe. Hence it makes no logical sense to argue that jesus is equating coming to believing.
[Jhn 8:43 KJV]
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
[Jhn 8:47 KJV]
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.
[Jhn 10:3-4, 14, 16 KJV]
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. ...
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. ...
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
[Jhn 10:26-27 KJV]
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Your original observation re: J6:35 was a good one IMO. I'd ask you to rethink this one. Look at all the wording in 6:35. Here's why:
► c. Emphatic Negation Subjunctive
1) Definition
Emphatic negation is indicated by οὐ μή plus the aorist subjunctive or, less frequently, οὐ μή plus the future indicative (e.g., Matt 26:35; Mark 13:31; John 4:14; 6:35). This is the strongest way to negate something in Greek.
One might think that the negative with the subjunctive could not be as strong as the negative with the indicative. However, while οὐ + the indicative denies a certainty, οὐ μή + the subjunctive denies a potentiality. The negative is not weaker; rather, the affirmation that is being negatived is less firm with the subjunctive. οὐ μή rules out even the idea as being a possibility: “ου μή is the most decisive way of negativing someth. in the future.”58
Emphatic negation is found primarily in the reported sayings of Jesus (both in the Gospels and in the Apocalypse); secondarily, in quotations from the LXX. Outside of these two sources it occurs only rarely. As well, a soteriological theme is frequently found in such statements, especially in John: what is negatived is the possibility of the loss of salvation.
2) Illustrations
Matt 24:35
οἱ λόγοι μου οὐ μὴ παρέλθωσιν59
My words will not at all pass away.
John 10:28
δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα
I give them eternal life, and they will not at all perish.
John 11:26
πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ
Everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.
Rom 4:8
μακάριος ἀνὴρ οὗ οὐ μὴ λογίσηται κύριος ἁμαρτίαν
Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not at all count.
Heb 13:5
οὐ μη´ σε ἀνῶ οὐδ᾽ οὐ μη´ σε ἐγκαταλίπω60
I will not at all fail you nor will I ever leave you.
Cf. also Matt 5:18, 20; 13:14; Mark 9:1, 41; 13:2; Luke 6:37; 18:7; 21:18; John 6:37; 8:12, 51; 20:25; Acts 13:41; Gal 5:16; 1 Thess 5:3; Heb 8:12; 1 Pet 2:6; Rev 2:11; 3:5, 12; 21:27.
From Greek Beyond the Basics by Daniel Wallace
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I disagree, but in any event, they neither can listen, hear, nor believe, until first being made His sheep - that being the prerequisite. They hear only because they are "of God", by which, are they made His sheep, hear, and believe; but the reverse isn't true - that they are made His sheep because they hear.
[Jhn 8:47 KJV]
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.
[Jhn 8:47 NIV]
47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
[Jhn 10:26-27 NIV]
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
[Jhn 10:26 KJV]
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
[Jhn 10:27 NIV] 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
[Jhn 10:27 KJV] 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[Mat 25:32-34 KJV]
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[Mat 25:32-34 NIV]
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
[1Pe 1:4 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
[Jhn 8:47 KJV]
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.
[Jhn 8:47 NIV]
47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
[Jhn 10:26-27 NIV]
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
[Jhn 10:26 KJV]
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
[Jhn 10:27 NIV] 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
[Jhn 10:27 KJV] 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[Mat 25:32-34 KJV]
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[Mat 25:32-34 NIV]
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
[1Pe 1:4 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Yes, and, well, the fool says in his heart that there is no God...
Romans 1:20-21 Since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.
Romans 1:20-21 Since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.
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2 Thessalonians 2:10b-14a ~ Those who are perishing refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness. But we always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth, to which He called you through our gospel.[/COLOR]
So saith you! Your problem is that your finite self thinks it can understand and infinite God exhaustively. You have forgotten that God does not think like you, like me, like any mere mortal. What God intended for mankind will one day come to complete fruition when Jesus returns, since He is the Federal Head of God's elect.
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Talk about missing the elephant in the room! Jesus rightly criticized many who followed him because their motives were all wrong. They like the Pharisees had no love for God and no faith! What Jesus is actually telling those people is that even though you followed me over here with ulterior motives, you were NOT drawn by my Father. So, his discourse contrasts those false disciples with genuine followers of Christ who were actually give to Son and drawn to him.
We can know for certain that the giving of Jesus and the drawing of people to him is efficacious because Jesus clearly said he would lose no one and that he would resurrect them [to eternal LIFE] on the last day -- both of which are the will of his Father, and in fact that those who believe already have eternal life! It is precisely this efficacious drawing of Christ, whereby ALL (as in each and every person) whereby all who are drawn will look to Christ in faith (v. 37), and these will be raised up to eternal life on the last day.
The "command" to genuinely come to Christ is equated with faith in various places in scripture. Can anyone come to Christ with impure motives, no love for him and no faith in him and be accepted by the Father or the Son? Is the Son going to raise up such people to eternal life on the last day? See Mat 11:28; Rev 22:17.
Also, "enable" can mean to [literally] make able, to give power, give the ability to, to cause to operate. You're looking at "enable" only in the sense of "to make possible" or "make easy". But this understanding flies in the face of Jn 6. Why? Because ALL that the Father gives to the Son will genuinely come to him -- unlike many of those who followed him over to Capernaum. When Jesus raised Lazarus from his tomb, did He not effectually enable him to rise and COME forth? But in your universe, God's arm is too short to actually and effectually save anyone because you refuse to see yourself the way God does!
We can know for certain that the giving of Jesus and the drawing of people to him is efficacious because Jesus clearly said he would lose no one and that he would resurrect them [to eternal LIFE] on the last day -- both of which are the will of his Father, and in fact that those who believe already have eternal life! It is precisely this efficacious drawing of Christ, whereby ALL (as in each and every person) whereby all who are drawn will look to Christ in faith (v. 37), and these will be raised up to eternal life on the last day.
The "command" to genuinely come to Christ is equated with faith in various places in scripture. Can anyone come to Christ with impure motives, no love for him and no faith in him and be accepted by the Father or the Son? Is the Son going to raise up such people to eternal life on the last day? See Mat 11:28; Rev 22:17.
Also, "enable" can mean to [literally] make able, to give power, give the ability to, to cause to operate. You're looking at "enable" only in the sense of "to make possible" or "make easy". But this understanding flies in the face of Jn 6. Why? Because ALL that the Father gives to the Son will genuinely come to him -- unlike many of those who followed him over to Capernaum. When Jesus raised Lazarus from his tomb, did He not effectually enable him to rise and COME forth? But in your universe, God's arm is too short to actually and effectually save anyone because you refuse to see yourself the way God does!
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I didn't wrestle anything out of its context. Verse 26 provides critically important information as to the spiritual condition of his original audience. And this is why Jesus took the time to explain to them what truly coming to him looks like! First, ALL true seekers of Jesus were given to Him by the Father and they were also drawn to Him by the Father and the will of the Father is that ALL that He gives to Jesus should lose nothing and should raise them up on the last day. If you think that the phony disciples were also given to Jesus by the Father, then this presents serious theological problems. First, Jesus lost many of them since they departed from him. And by Him losing them, he failed to keep his Father's will on this matter thereby making Jesus a sinner! And if Jesus is a sinner, then he 's not the Lamb of God without spot or blemish who takes away the sin of the world. And that means YOU are still dead in your sins!
They were true seekers because God enabled those whom he gave to and draws to his Son, and all the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him, and all those the Father gives to the Son the Son loses none of them, for He will raise them up to LIFE on the last day -- all because all of these things are his Father's will. Doesn't sound like the Father gave His Son any duds or counterfeits or fakes.
Do you believe that the Father gave to Jesus all those disciples who followed Him to Capernaum, many of whom deserted him?
Do you believe that the Father gave to Jesus all those disciples who followed Him to Capernaum, many of whom deserted him?
I have another deeply penetrating, thought-provoking, spiritually-intensive question for all FWs re the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6. Or more specifically, my question pertains to v.13 wherein Jesus prayed to the Father in part b. "but deliver us from [the] evil [one]". Didn't Jesus pray to his Father to literally effectuate spiritual deliverance (rescue)? If not, why not? But if he did, then since God's grace is effectual in some aspect of a person's spiritual life, then what would make you think He could not be efficaciously involved in all aspects of our salvation -- from the beginning which HE started to the very end which HE will complete (Php 1:6)?
Jesus said, "those who worship...must worship in spirit" so, I would feel safe to assume that anyone yet alive in the flesh is not yet totally dead in the spirit. That is, some degree of faith keeps them in life. And although I'm aware this (people living though dead in spirit) is often asserted as fact, I will only go as far to agree if this were qualified by the exact translation of the Lord's declaration to Adam in saying, "dying you will die." This is my understanding of those outside of faith in Christ, in dying they will die as there is no other path, ie dying doesn't lead to life, apart from Christ of course given that death is the exact avenue to life, as qualified in the way for those in Him (and the only way for anybody).
So, if we cannot tithe our way, or any other 'good deed' our way to life, then I'm inclined to think those things are not the way of worshiping in spirit. Well, this begs the question, what is it that counts as 'worshiping in spirit'? And @Magenta's post 9350 provided me some insight into that understanding with 2Thess:14a, "...because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth..."
It occurs to me that the sanctification of the Spirit is the moment of salvation, the moment that our spirit 'becomes one' with the Spirit (and) by faith in the truth. And to further clarify my position, I do not believe that the flesh is able to choose, as it is predisposed to its own will, in spite of its foolishness regardless of any amount of awareness or ignorance. This is why anyone that worships God must worship in spirit and in truth, as the truth that anyone has the slightest chance of apprehending can only be 'grasped' by the spirit.
I realize that I could have just clicked the "agree" emoji on your post but I wanted to elaborate exactly the reason why I do. It is my he only choices that can be made are done by the spirit and the will is a construct of the spirit, and not of the flesh. And this is why the will can be, and is readily, 'led by' the flesh but the flesh can only be led by the sanctified spirit, which is sanctified by faith in the truth and that is sanctified by the Spirit (the Spirit is witness to our spirit that...).
*for some reason my entire post has been underlined in red squiggly lines which typically indicate incorrect grammar usage so, I hope I was able to clearly as much as is possible in my attempt to convey ideas of any spiritual matter. Even so, I'm entering this message at whatever rate it might procure.
So, if we cannot tithe our way, or any other 'good deed' our way to life, then I'm inclined to think those things are not the way of worshiping in spirit. Well, this begs the question, what is it that counts as 'worshiping in spirit'? And @Magenta's post 9350 provided me some insight into that understanding with 2Thess:14a, "...because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth..."
It occurs to me that the sanctification of the Spirit is the moment of salvation, the moment that our spirit 'becomes one' with the Spirit (and) by faith in the truth. And to further clarify my position, I do not believe that the flesh is able to choose, as it is predisposed to its own will, in spite of its foolishness regardless of any amount of awareness or ignorance. This is why anyone that worships God must worship in spirit and in truth, as the truth that anyone has the slightest chance of apprehending can only be 'grasped' by the spirit.
I realize that I could have just clicked the "agree" emoji on your post but I wanted to elaborate exactly the reason why I do. It is my he only choices that can be made are done by the spirit and the will is a construct of the spirit, and not of the flesh. And this is why the will can be, and is readily, 'led by' the flesh but the flesh can only be led by the sanctified spirit, which is sanctified by faith in the truth and that is sanctified by the Spirit (the Spirit is witness to our spirit that...).
*for some reason my entire post has been underlined in red squiggly lines which typically indicate incorrect grammar usage so, I hope I was able to clearly as much as is possible in my attempt to convey ideas of any spiritual matter. Even so, I'm entering this message at whatever rate it might procure.
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