The Olivet Discourse, Take 2

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randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
996
280
63
Pacific NW USA
#1
Hosea 9.
10 “When I found Israel,
it was like finding grapes in the desert;
when I saw your ancestors,
it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree.
But when they came to Baal Peor,
they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol
and became as vile as the thing they loved.
11 Ephraim’s glory will fly away like a bird—
no birth, no pregnancy, no conception.
12 Even if they rear children,
I will bereave them of every one.
Woe to them
when I turn away from them!


For years Dispensationalism, which has ruled as an eschatology in America, told me that Israel was the "fig tree" that was predicted in the Olivet Discourse to be reborn as a State in modern times. It was, they said, a predicted sign of the soon Rapture of the Church, before the 2nd Coming of Christ.

I do believe that the "fig tree" can represent Israel, if the context warrants it. But does the context warrant it in the case of the Olivet Discourse?

We know that around this time Jesus had depicted Israel as a failing fig tree. But in the Olivet Discourse, the "fig tree" appears to be bearing leaves and about to bear fruit. Does this indicate that Israel will not fail, but will be reborn as a state before the coming of Christ?

I don't think so--at least not with respect to the nation of Israel. Let's look at it more carefully...

Matt 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”....
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


Please note that Jesus had said that the temple was to be obliterated, and when asked when this would take place he indicated it would be in their generation. So this is not a positive development--this is a negative development--the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. How then can the "fig tree" be said to be producing leaves?"

In context Jesus explains that "all these things," namely the things he had just indicated were precursors of this event, would happen in the generation of his Disciples. What were these things? They were "birth pain" signs, which is a very negative thing for a pregnant woman about to give birth.

It consisted of the signs of imminent warfare, which would come through the Roman Army. It was the sign of God's displeasure with that time and place, with famines and earthquakes occurring. It was the sign of Israel's degeneracy, apostasy, and behavior leading to their judgment, including the persecution of Jewish believers.

These signs were negative, but what about the "fig tree" bearing leaves and about to bear fruit? Didn't this mean that the pregnant woman, ie Israel, was about to bear children?

No, it was a still birth or an aborted birth. Israel was indeed at the very cusp of achieving this with Messiah being in their midst. But instead of accepting him, they crucified him, bringing upon themselves judgment in that very generation. It was delayed out of God's patience and mercy, allowing the Gospel to be preached for an entire generation. But judgment certainly came in spades.

The "fig tree" bore leaves indicating that Israel could be saved. But the fruit never came, except by the disciples of Jesus. The Church was in fact born. But Israel went into an age-long dispersion called the Jewish Diaspora.

So the "fig tree" in the Olivet Discourse did *not* refer to Israel's modern rebirth as a political state. All of this took place in Christ's generation, leading to Israel's "great tribulation," aka the Jewish Diaspora.

But wasn't this sign of Israel's judgment supposed to be related to Christ's 2nd Coming? It was Jesus' answer to those who thought Israel was ready for Jesus' Kingdom. They weren't even close to ready. Instead they would be judged, making time for the Gentiles to obtain the Kingdom for themselves. Israel's Salvation would be delayed for a couple thousand years!

I've worked on this for a lifetime, because there have been so many conflicting interpretations. I hope my interpretation helps in clearing up some of the confusion.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
17,556
745
113
#2
Hosea 9.
10 “When I found Israel,
it was like finding grapes in the desert;
when I saw your ancestors,
it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree.
But when they came to Baal Peor,
they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol
and became as vile as the thing they loved.
11 Ephraim’s glory will fly away like a bird—
no birth, no pregnancy, no conception.
12 Even if they rear children,
I will bereave them of every one.
Woe to them
when I turn away from them!


For years Dispensationalism, which has ruled as an eschatology in America, told me that Israel was the "fig tree" that was predicted in the Olivet Discourse to be reborn as a State in modern times. It was, they said, a predicted sign of the soon Rapture of the Church, before the 2nd Coming of Christ.

I do believe that the "fig tree" can represent Israel, if the context warrants it. But does the context warrant it in the case of the Olivet Discourse?

We know that around this time Jesus had depicted Israel as a failing fig tree. But in the Olivet Discourse, the "fig tree" appears to be bearing leaves and about to bear fruit. Does this indicate that Israel will not fail, but will be reborn as a state before the coming of Christ?

I don't think so--at least not with respect to the nation of Israel. Let's look at it more carefully...

Matt 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”....
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


Please note that Jesus had said that the temple was to be obliterated, and when asked when this would take place he indicated it would be in their generation. So this is not a positive development--this is a negative development--the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. How then can the "fig tree" be said to be producing leaves?"

In context Jesus explains that "all these things," namely the things he had just indicated were precursors of this event, would happen in the generation of his Disciples. What were these things? They were "birth pain" signs, which is a very negative thing for a pregnant woman about to give birth.

It consisted of the signs of imminent warfare, which would come through the Roman Army. It was the sign of God's displeasure with that time and place, with famines and earthquakes occurring. It was the sign of Israel's degeneracy, apostasy, and behavior leading to their judgment, including the persecution of Jewish believers.

These signs were negative, but what about the "fig tree" bearing leaves and about to bear fruit? Didn't this mean that the pregnant woman, ie Israel, was about to bear children?

No, it was a still birth or an aborted birth. Israel was indeed at the very cusp of achieving this with Messiah being in their midst. But instead of accepting him, they crucified him, bringing upon themselves judgment in that very generation. It was delayed out of God's patience and mercy, allowing the Gospel to be preached for an entire generation. But judgment certainly came in spades.

The "fig tree" bore leaves indicating that Israel could be saved. But the fruit never came, except by the disciples of Jesus. The Church was in fact born. But Israel went into an age-long dispersion called the Jewish Diaspora.

So the "fig tree" in the Olivet Discourse did *not* refer to Israel's modern rebirth as a political state. All of this took place in Christ's generation, leading to Israel's "great tribulation," aka the Jewish Diaspora.

But wasn't this sign of Israel's judgment supposed to be related to Christ's 2nd Coming? It was Jesus' answer to those who thought Israel was ready for Jesus' Kingdom. They weren't even close to ready. Instead they would be judged, making time for the Gentiles to obtain the Kingdom for themselves. Israel's Salvation would be delayed for a couple thousand years!

I've worked on this for a lifetime, because there have been so many conflicting interpretations. I hope my interpretation helps in clearing up some of the confusion.
thank you for your view in this earth mess, we all are in
Myself I believe first above all God by Son took care of sin for everyone, by Son's dying once for everyone to be forgiven, reconciled. then for each to choose to believe God has done this through Son for them each personally is risen or choose not to believe it.
Once anyone does choose belief in risen Son Jesus, then God accepts them in God's love and mercy for them as in Eph 1:1-13 tells me especially verses 6,7,13
Phil 1:6 as well
This generation to see the end of Church buildings to go to to meet God ends, ended. That happened in AD 70 the Temple destroyed, Yet man has rebuilt it as man always somehow gets in the way of God again Fools Gold over real Gold!
God to now live in his children and give out the new risen Son to all to stand in belief to and receive the new too, in love and mercy to all, not a few as religion only does and fights, while Father and Son do not flesh fight, people do that not God Father and Son to me anyways
God loves us all y'all, time to start right there between God and you personally too, thank you
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
7,928
3,154
113
#3
Please note that Jesus had said that the temple was to be obliterated, and when asked when this would take place he indicated it would be in their generation.
Yes He did.
The word "you" means "you" and Jesus stated it 10 to 15 times in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew.

I've worked on this for a lifetime, because there have been so many conflicting interpretations. I hope my interpretation helps in clearing up some of the confusion.
Your work is bearing good fruit and I am noticing here and other places dispensationalism is dying a slow but sure death.
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
2,526
1,158
113
#4
This OP reads like a very low-effort persuasive essay; not the fruit of lifetime's worth of diligent study.

Fruit is fruit. Leaves are leaves. Tender branches and leaves are a sign a tree is growing rather than withering; but not a promise that it will bear fruit. In the section after the Olivet discourse, fruit is specifically not mentioned.


Has the Gospel Been Preached to All Nations?

https://www.hisfeet.com/has-the-gospel-been-preached-to-all-nations/

Defining "Nations": The Biblical and Ethnolinguistic View
In Scripture, "nations" is derived from the Greek word ethnos, which refers to political countries and distinct ethnic groups. Therefore, when Jesus commands His followers to preach to all nations, it is more accurate to understand this as reaching every ethnolinguistic people group—a community distinguished by language, culture, or social identity. This interpretation aligns with modern mission efforts, which focus on reaching the unique and diverse peoples whom the political borders of countries may not represent.
The Joshua Project, a leading authority on tracking the progress of world evangelism, defines these groups as "people groups," noting that there are over 17,000 such groups worldwide. Among these, thousands are still considered "unreached" or have little to no access to the gospel.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
7,928
3,154
113
#5
This interpretation aligns with modern mission efforts, which focus on reaching the unique and diverse peoples whom the political borders of countries may not represent.
They did not exist in the ancient world?
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
996
280
63
Pacific NW USA
#7
thank you for your view in this earth mess, we all are in
Myself I believe first above all God by Son took care of sin for everyone, by Son's dying once for everyone to be forgiven, reconciled. then for each to choose to believe God has done this through Son for them each personally is risen or choose not to believe it.
Once anyone does choose belief in risen Son Jesus, then God accepts them in God's love and mercy for them as in Eph 1:1-13 tells me especially verses 6,7,13
Phil 1:6 as well
This generation to see the end of Church buildings to go to to meet God ends, ended. That happened in AD 70 the Temple destroyed, Yet man has rebuilt it as man always somehow gets in the way of God again Fools Gold over real Gold!
God to now live in his children and give out the new risen Son to all to stand in belief to and receive the new too, in love and mercy to all, not a few as religion only does and fights, while Father and Son do not flesh fight, people do that not God Father and Son to me anyways
God loves us all y'all, time to start right there between God and you personally too, thank you
I agree--thank you! I don't think Israel had to fight over a literal Temple when God put that in effect. But now that the Temple has moved from a building to our hearts those who wish to maintain a physical building miss the boat and would fight to retain something farther away from the heart. It's fine to meet in a physical building we call "church," but the Church is wherever we go and whenever we choose to praise and thank God. If we keep that in mind we won't fight over anything.
 
Jan 15, 2025
80
32
18
#9
Hosea 9.
10 “When I found Israel,
it was like finding grapes in the desert;
when I saw your ancestors,
it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree.
But when they came to Baal Peor,
they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol
and became as vile as the thing they loved.
11 Ephraim’s glory will fly away like a bird—
no birth, no pregnancy, no conception.
12 Even if they rear children,
I will bereave them of every one.
Woe to them
when I turn away from them!


For years Dispensationalism, which has ruled as an eschatology in America, told me that Israel was the "fig tree" that was predicted in the Olivet Discourse to be reborn as a State in modern times. It was, they said, a predicted sign of the soon Rapture of the Church, before the 2nd Coming of Christ.

I do believe that the "fig tree" can represent Israel, if the context warrants it. But does the context warrant it in the case of the Olivet Discourse?

We know that around this time Jesus had depicted Israel as a failing fig tree. But in the Olivet Discourse, the "fig tree" appears to be bearing leaves and about to bear fruit. Does this indicate that Israel will not fail, but will be reborn as a state before the coming of Christ?

I don't think so--at least not with respect to the nation of Israel. Let's look at it more carefully...

Matt 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”....
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


Please note that Jesus had said that the temple was to be obliterated, and when asked when this would take place he indicated it would be in their generation. So this is not a positive development--this is a negative development--the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. How then can the "fig tree" be said to be producing leaves?"

In context Jesus explains that "all these things," namely the things he had just indicated were precursors of this event, would happen in the generation of his Disciples. What were these things? They were "birth pain" signs, which is a very negative thing for a pregnant woman about to give birth.

It consisted of the signs of imminent warfare, which would come through the Roman Army. It was the sign of God's displeasure with that time and place, with famines and earthquakes occurring. It was the sign of Israel's degeneracy, apostasy, and behavior leading to their judgment, including the persecution of Jewish believers.

These signs were negative, but what about the "fig tree" bearing leaves and about to bear fruit? Didn't this mean that the pregnant woman, ie Israel, was about to bear children?

No, it was a still birth or an aborted birth. Israel was indeed at the very cusp of achieving this with Messiah being in their midst. But instead of accepting him, they crucified him, bringing upon themselves judgment in that very generation. It was delayed out of God's patience and mercy, allowing the Gospel to be preached for an entire generation. But judgment certainly came in spades.

The "fig tree" bore leaves indicating that Israel could be saved. But the fruit never came, except by the disciples of Jesus. The Church was in fact born. But Israel went into an age-long dispersion called the Jewish Diaspora.

So the "fig tree" in the Olivet Discourse did *not* refer to Israel's modern rebirth as a political state. All of this took place in Christ's generation, leading to Israel's "great tribulation," aka the Jewish Diaspora.

But wasn't this sign of Israel's judgment supposed to be related to Christ's 2nd Coming? It was Jesus' answer to those who thought Israel was ready for Jesus' Kingdom. They weren't even close to ready. Instead they would be judged, making time for the Gentiles to obtain the Kingdom for themselves. Israel's Salvation would be delayed for a couple thousand years!

I've worked on this for a lifetime, because there have been so many conflicting interpretations. I hope my interpretation helps in clearing up some of the confusion.
The parallel passage in Luke 21:28-31 does mention signs and the fig tree. I agree that the fig tree may not mean the birth of the nation of Israel. I disagree with the preterist interpretation that the Olivet discourse refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. When you see the signs, your redemption and the kingdom of God is near, i.e. Jesus' second coming.

"When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. (Luke 21:28-31 NIV)
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
996
280
63
Pacific NW USA
#10
This OP reads like a very low-effort persuasive essay; not the fruit of lifetime's worth of diligent study.

Fruit is fruit. Leaves are leaves. Tender branches and leaves are a sign a tree is growing rather than withering; but not a promise that it will bear fruit. In the section after the Olivet discourse, fruit is specifically not mentioned.
I've put lots of years into reading, memorizing, and studying the Olivet Discourse, and have compared, in detail, all of the accounts. I'm prepared to discuss any matters that concern you.

I agree that the Fig Tree bears leaves, but no fruit is mentioned. That is why I suggest the sign is not one of accomlishment, but rather, one of failure.