The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Believer08]

When faced with the truth of people falling away from the faith, departing from the faith, etc etc…people who believe in the doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy typically says “he/she never had faith” or “he/she was never truly saved to begin with”

But….

That means it’s entirely possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be…

How comforting is that?

I wonder if these people would apply that same line of reasoning with themselves? Or are they the exception to it? I wonder how consistent they would be? If they themselves depart, would they say they were never saved?

If so, then when would they know for sure???

Are any of them absolutely, positively certain without a doubt they are saved at this very moment???

Of course they’d say yes…

But…

If any of them depart from their faith, all their OSAS friends will say...

You were never saved to begin with!!

So, according to their view, it is possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be!!!

Not only were these individuals not Christians now, but they were never Christians in the first place, despite the fact that in the past these people did everything that current devoted believers of OSAS will cite as proof of their own conversion!

It can be challenging for individuals to apply the same reasoning to themselves as they do to others. If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might struggle with the question of whether they were ever truly saved themselves. This inconsistency can lead to confusion and doubt about their own salvation.

If someone departs from their faith, they may feel a loss of that assurance, leading to uncertainty about their own standing before God.

If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might grapple with questions about their own salvation.

The ugly reality behind the supposed comfort of the doctrine of once saved always is It's supposed to provide believers with the assurance of salvation, but logically, it does the opposite. Those who live like faithful Christians, who sincerely (to every appearance) describe themselves as being children of God, can still fall away and thereby prove that they were never regenerated/saved at all. To be true and honest with their belief, no person who believes in OSAS would categorize anyone to be saved, as such an individual will prove their salvation to be genuine by dying to the faith.

 

[studentoftheword]

The Person who is truly Saved has experienced God's Blessings through having the indwelling of the Holy spirit and believe me --NO ONE who has experienced God's Blessings and the Holy Spirit's enlightenment will ever want to denounce Christ --their lives have just been made to good to even think about denouncing Christ ----that is a truly Saved forever person -----THE ONCE SAVED WILL ALWAYS WANT TO STAY SAVED ------

God's blessings ----to His Children

Protection ---against your enemies

God's favor to give you opportunities beyond your human capabilities----

Healing both Spiritually and Physically ---

Guidance in your every day life ----

Stability in all you do ----

Prosperity ---gives success in whatever you put your hands to -----

Provision----will supply all your needs

Peace in your Body --Mind and Spirit ----


Ask yourself ----would you give these Blessings up to go back to this Cursed World and be under Satan's rule again ----to live under the Curses of God ------


Only those who have not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who have not experienced God's Blessings and ---who just think they are saved will remain unsaved ----and just think they have lost their Salvation that they didn't have in the first place -----they are under the Curses of God not the Blessings ----

Want to know the curses ----all unbelievers remain under the curses -----Deuteronomy 28


You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.

Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.

The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and

the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.

You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.

The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. [1]

The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess.

The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish.

The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies.


I say -----
I don't think there is much hope for a True Saved Christian leaving God's Blessings to go back into the Curses -----

Jesus said this -----warning to those who just think they are saved ------by doing good works ---going to Church on sunday ----or that God's Love has saved them ----or by believing that Jesus is the Messiah by their own human intellectual faith is enough all that is need to be saved ----etc ----so much false Doctrine out there to make one believe they are Saved ------BUT they are NOT -----

 

[Magenta]

If any of them depart from their faith, all their OSAS friends will say...

You were never saved to begin with!!

So, according to their view, ...

What you call "their view" is consistent with what Scripture teaches.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

 

[Cameron143]

When faced with the truth of people falling away from the faith, departing from the faith, etc etc…people who believe in the doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy typically says “he/she never had faith” or “he/she was never truly saved to begin with”

But….

That means it’s entirely possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be…

How comforting is that?

I wonder if these people would apply that same line of reasoning with themselves? Or are they the exception to it? I wonder how consistent they would be? If they themselves depart, would they say they were never saved?

If so, then when would they know for sure???

Are any of them absolutely, positively certain without a doubt they are saved at this very moment???

Of course they’d say yes…

But…

If any of them depart from their faith, all their OSAS friends will say...

You were never saved to begin with!!

So, according to their view, it is possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be!!!

Not only were these individuals not Christians now, but they were never Christians in the first place, despite the fact that in the past these people did everything that current devoted believers of OSAS will cite as proof of their own conversion!

It can be challenging for individuals to apply the same reasoning to themselves as they do to others. If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might struggle with the question of whether they were ever truly saved themselves. This inconsistency can lead to confusion and doubt about their own salvation.

If someone departs from their faith, they may feel a loss of that assurance, leading to uncertainty about their own standing before God.

If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might grapple with questions about their own salvation.

The ugly reality behind the supposed comfort of the doctrine of once saved always is It's supposed to provide believers with the assurance of salvation, but logically, it does the opposite. Those who live like faithful Christians, who sincerely (to every appearance) describe themselves as being children of God, can still fall away and thereby prove that they were never regenerated/saved at all. To be true and honest with their belief, no person who believes in OSAS would categorize anyone to be saved, as such an individual will prove their salvation to be genuine by dying to the faith.

Matthew 7:21-23 makes clear that one can be confident in their relationship with Christ without it being so. That's why we should give diligence to make our calling and election sure.

 

[Tall_Timbers]

That means it’s entirely possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be…

It's not very comforting at all but it is reality. I believe some catholics are truly saved, but the vast majority to not know Jesus personally. They think they're saved insofar as their concept of salvation will allow. The same goes for many of the main stream churches, and the NAR churches. Many are "christians" but few are "Christians".

 

[Believer08]

Unless I knew with absolute certainty that they didn’t become a Christian according to God’s word, I’d never say someone was never saved to begin with.

 

[Gideon300]

When faced with the truth of people falling away from the faith, departing from the faith, etc etc…people who believe in the doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy typically says “he/she never had faith” or “he/she was never truly saved to begin with”

But….

That means it’s entirely possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be…

How comforting is that?

I wonder if these people would apply that same line of reasoning with themselves? Or are they the exception to it? I wonder how consistent they would be? If they themselves depart, would they say they were never saved?

If so, then when would they know for sure???

Are any of them absolutely, positively certain without a doubt they are saved at this very moment???

Of course they’d say yes…

But…

If any of them depart from their faith, all their OSAS friends will say...

You were never saved to begin with!!

So, according to their view, it is possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be!!!

Not only were these individuals not Christians now, but they were never Christians in the first place, despite the fact that in the past these people did everything that current devoted believers of OSAS will cite as proof of their own conversion!

It can be challenging for individuals to apply the same reasoning to themselves as they do to others. If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might struggle with the question of whether they were ever truly saved themselves. This inconsistency can lead to confusion and doubt about their own salvation.

If someone departs from their faith, they may feel a loss of that assurance, leading to uncertainty about their own standing before God.

If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might grapple with questions about their own salvation.

The ugly reality behind the supposed comfort of the doctrine of once saved always is It's supposed to provide believers with the assurance of salvation, but logically, it does the opposite. Those who live like faithful Christians, who sincerely (to every appearance) describe themselves as being children of God, can still fall away and thereby prove that they were never regenerated/saved at all. To be true and honest with their belief, no person who believes in OSAS would categorize anyone to be saved, as such an individual will prove their salvation to be genuine by dying to the faith.

At the risk of being repetitive, the confusion comes from the word "saved". It does not mean "going to heaven when you die". We should make a distinction between being born again and the subsequent deliverance that is progressive and a life long experience.

Being born again is instant, is the work of God and requires accepting Jesus as Saviour and Lord (John 1:12). Being born again is irreversible. Since it is the work of God, it cannot be undone.

The ongoing "salvation" (better translated deliverance) is the salvation of the soul. (1 Peter 1:9, James 1:21.) This is the work that Lord does and is the point of the Kingdom of God (Luke 4:18). This is partly our responsibility. God will not violate our will, so progress is dependent on our willingness to change. And this is where things can go very wrong.

Some people get angry at God because they don't get their own way. God's ways are no ours. Some love their sin too much to give it up. Some cannot bring themselves to forgive those who have offended them. There are attitudes and actions that hinder our fellowship with God and leave the believer in a kind of no man's land. It's a terrible place to be.

This does not mean that the individual will be sent to hell when they die. It does mean that they will miss out on the rewards that God has in store for those who serve Him well in this life. There is much more to say about this, but it will have to do for now.

 

[PennEd]

When faced with the truth of people falling away from the faith, departing from the faith, etc etc…people who believe in the doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy typically says “he/she never had faith” or “he/she was never truly saved to begin with”

But….

That means it’s entirely possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be…

How comforting is that?

I wonder if these people would apply that same line of reasoning with themselves? Or are they the exception to it? I wonder how consistent they would be? If they themselves depart, would they say they were never saved?

If so, then when would they know for sure???

Are any of them absolutely, positively certain without a doubt they are saved at this very moment???

Of course they’d say yes…

But…

If any of them depart from their faith, all their OSAS friends will say...

You were never saved to begin with!!

So, according to their view, it is possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be!!!

Not only were these individuals not Christians now, but they were never Christians in the first place, despite the fact that in the past these people did everything that current devoted believers of OSAS will cite as proof of their own conversion!

It can be challenging for individuals to apply the same reasoning to themselves as they do to others. If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might struggle with the question of whether they were ever truly saved themselves. This inconsistency can lead to confusion and doubt about their own salvation.

If someone departs from their faith, they may feel a loss of that assurance, leading to uncertainty about their own standing before God.

If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might grapple with questions about their own salvation.

The ugly reality behind the supposed comfort of the doctrine of once saved always is It's supposed to provide believers with the assurance of salvation, but logically, it does the opposite. Those who live like faithful Christians, who sincerely (to every appearance) describe themselves as being children of God, can still fall away and thereby prove that they were never regenerated/saved at all. To be true and honest with their belief, no person who believes in OSAS would categorize anyone to be saved, as such an individual will prove their salvation to be genuine by dying to the faith.

Seems like it's been awhile since we've had a full throated Eternal Security thread.

What you fail to note, is that it's not just about believing. It's about believing through faith AND THEN IT'S ABOUT A NEW BIRTH!

Are YOU Born Again?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Being born again is instant, is the work of God and requires accepting Jesus as Saviour and Lord (John 1:12). Being born again is irreversible. Since it is the work of God, it cannot be undone.

The ongoing "salvation" (better translated deliverance) is the salvation of the soul. (1 Peter 1:9, James 1:21.)

Born from above means to be conceived from above; it doesn't mean having been birthed, which doesn't happen until the resurrection when we are given incorruptible bodies. Conception cannot be undone, but it can die before birth, ie stillbirth

Salvation is of the body, soul and spirit, ie the whole man

And may the GOD of peace himself fully sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23​

 

[HeIsHere]

At the risk of being repetitive, the confusion comes from the word "saved". It does not mean "going to heaven when you die". We should make a distinction between being born again and the subsequent deliverance that is progressive and a life long experience.

Exactly.

Being born again is instant, is the work of God and requires accepting Jesus as Saviour and Lord (John 1:12). Being born again is irreversible. Since it is the work of God, it cannot be undone.

Amen!

 

[JBTN]

This verse seems relevant to this conversation.

“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭3‬:‭12‬-‭14‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1/heb.3.14.KJV

 

[Jimbone]

When faced with the truth of people falling away from the faith, departing from the faith, etc etc…people who believe in the doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy typically says “he/she never had faith” or “he/she was never truly saved to begin with”

But….

That means it’s entirely possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be…

How comforting is that?

I wonder if these people would apply that same line of reasoning with themselves? Or are they the exception to it? I wonder how consistent they would be? If they themselves depart, would they say they were never saved?

If so, then when would they know for sure???

Are any of them absolutely, positively certain without a doubt they are saved at this very moment???

Of course they’d say yes…

But…

If any of them depart from their faith, all their OSAS friends will say...

You were never saved to begin with!!

So, according to their view, it is possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be!!!

Not only were these individuals not Christians now, but they were never Christians in the first place, despite the fact that in the past these people did everything that current devoted believers of OSAS will cite as proof of their own conversion!

It can be challenging for individuals to apply the same reasoning to themselves as they do to others. If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might struggle with the question of whether they were ever truly saved themselves. This inconsistency can lead to confusion and doubt about their own salvation.

If someone departs from their faith, they may feel a loss of that assurance, leading to uncertainty about their own standing before God.

If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might grapple with questions about their own salvation.

The ugly reality behind the supposed comfort of the doctrine of once saved always is It's supposed to provide believers with the assurance of salvation, but logically, it does the opposite. Those who live like faithful Christians, who sincerely (to every appearance) describe themselves as being children of God, can still fall away and thereby prove that they were never regenerated/saved at all. To be true and honest with their belief, no person who believes in OSAS would categorize anyone to be saved, as such an individual will prove their salvation to be genuine by dying to the faith.

That means it’s entirely possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be…
It is. I was deceived for about 5 years thinking I was saved when I wasn't. You can't know if you're not saved, but it's impossible to not know when you are saved in truth.

How comforting is that? It doesn't matter, it's the truth.

I wonder if these people would apply that same line of reasoning with themselves? Or are they the exception to it? I wonder how consistent they would be? If they themselves depart, would they say they were never saved?
This is just a silly though experiment dealing with salvation as if it's something we can just "mistake" and "not know for sure until we die". Both are false and it's the power of His Spirit that opens our eyes, changes us from the inside, and assures us that we are saved.

If so, then when would they know for sure???
When we are born again. When our dead spirit in Adam is resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit. Do you not know this? Has this not happen to you? to be honest these sound like questions from someone who may think they're saved but have not been born again in truth. I only say this because the Spirit is never even considered or mentioned in these questions when it is the answer to all of them. What makes us Christian? What does that mean to you? Is it just a promise you make to God? Does anything actually happen to us? I know after thinking I was saved for years and not being, and then being saved in a "Road to Damascus" kind of way, that was my biggest misunderstanding, the Spirit. I thought it came and went, I thought it was goosebumps when hearing a song at the right time, but what I realized it it's not something you can KNOW until you've had one in life. I may be way off base here. I don't know you and am not at all trying to question your salvation status, that's between you and Him. I also hope I'm not coming across too harsh or like I'm being judgmental of your questions here. I think they're great question that we should all ask, but again it just seemed to me that the thing you're asking just don't recognize His Spirit and it's part in all of this.

Again I believe you can be unsaved and think you're saved, but those truly saved in Jesus now KNOW Him firsthand and cannot think they are not saved. Being saved lifts the veil and opens our eyes to truth. This is not something we have the power to do to ourselves, nor do we have the power to undo it. I know a lot of people want to believe that we have "free" will and can choose or unchoose God at anytime we want no matter where we are, saved or lost, but they rob God of power and glory to give to us weak men that don't deserve the grace we've been given.

That's why to clear it up. Now you know.

 

[GWH]

The Person who is truly Saved has experienced God's Blessings through having the indwelling of the Holy spirit and believe me --NO ONE who has experienced God's Blessings and the Holy Spirit's enlightenment will ever want to denounce Christ --their lives have just been made to good to even think about denouncing Christ ----that is a truly Saved forever person -----THE ONCE SAVED WILL ALWAYS WANT TO STAY SAVED ------

God's blessings ----to His Children

Protection ---against your enemies

God's favor to give you opportunities beyond your human capabilities----

Healing both Spiritually and Physically ---

Guidance in your every day life ----

Stability in all you do ----

Prosperity ---gives success in whatever you put your hands to -----

Provision----will supply all your needs

Peace in your Body --Mind and Spirit ----


Ask yourself ----would you give these Blessings up to go back to this Cursed World and be under Satan's rule again ----to live under the Curses of God ------


Only those who have not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who have not experienced God's Blessings and ---who just think they are saved will remain unsaved ----and just think they have lost their Salvation that they didn't have in the first place -----they are under the Curses of God not the Blessings ----

Want to know the curses ----all unbelievers remain under the curses -----Deuteronomy 28


You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.

Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.

The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and

the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.

You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.

The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. [1]

The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess.

The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish.

The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies.


I say -----
I don't think there is much hope for a True Saved Christian leaving God's Blessings to go back into the Curses -----

Jesus said this -----warning to those who just think they are saved ------by doing good works ---going to Church on sunday ----or that God's Love has saved them ----or by believing that Jesus is the Messiah by their own human intellectual faith is enough all that is need to be saved ----etc ----so much false Doctrine out there to make one believe they are Saved ------BUT they are NOT -----

Re "The Person who is truly Saved has experienced God's Blessings through having the indwelling of the Holy spirit and believe me --NO ONE who has experienced God's Blessings and the Holy Spirit's enlightenment will ever want to denounce Christ --their lives have just been made to good to even think about denouncing Christ ----that is a truly Saved forever person -----THE ONCE SAVED WILL ALWAYS WANT TO STAY SAVED ------ ": GW disagrees:

Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

 

[John146]

Re "The Person who is truly Saved has experienced God's Blessings through having the indwelling of the Holy spirit and believe me --NO ONE who has experienced God's Blessings and the Holy Spirit's enlightenment will ever want to denounce Christ --their lives have just been made to good to even think about denouncing Christ ----that is a truly Saved forever person -----THE ONCE SAVED WILL ALWAYS WANT TO STAY SAVED ------ ": GW disagrees:

Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

The student of the bible must rightly divide the word of truth. There are divisions to be made throughout scripture. It is not good bible study to try and mesh all scripture to the same audience.

 

[Jimbone]

Re "The Person who is truly Saved has experienced God's Blessings through having the indwelling of the Holy spirit and believe me --NO ONE who has experienced God's Blessings and the Holy Spirit's enlightenment will ever want to denounce Christ --their lives have just been made to good to even think about denouncing Christ ----that is a truly Saved forever person -----THE ONCE SAVED WILL ALWAYS WANT TO STAY SAVED ------ ": GW disagrees:

Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

None of these, no not one, say that you can be saved in truth and then be unsaved. None of them.

 

[GWH]

None of these, no not one, say that you can be saved in truth and then be unsaved. None of them.

Scriptures that teach you can be truly saved but then be unsaved:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The student of the bible must rightly divide the word of truth. There are divisions to be made throughout scripture. It is not good bible study to try and mesh all scripture to the same audience.

The divisions to be made are between carnal and spiritual. That is all the bible is about, and there is only one audience - God's spiritual people who are one flock

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

op: problem with man's statement "never saved to begin with"?:

Yes, agree with problem: how would any man judge that way, When ONLY "God Knows
the heart" (Acts 1:24, 15:8 AV), unless they are EQUAL To HIM, eh?

Amen.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The parable of the 4 soils provides insight into the nature of believing in Christ, but then falling away.

1. The first soil doesn't believe at all;
2. The 2nd soil believes, but falls away due to persecution
3. The 3rd soil grows, but doesn't produce fruit because care was not taken to keep the soil free of weeds
4. The 4th soil produces fruit because the gardener took care to keep the soil free of weeds

The last 3 believed, but only the 4th was successful. There really is no difference between the 3rd and 4th soils other than the care that the gardener gave the plant.

 

[John146]

The divisions to be made are between carnal and spiritual. That is all the bible is about, and there is only one audience - God's spiritual people who are one flock

Have you built an ark? Made animal sacrifices? Gone to Nineveh preaching destruction?

There are three audiences in scripture that God recognizes: Jew, Gentile, the church of God. We are to rightly divide the word of truth within these three audiences.