Believing on his name

[mailmandan]

In all of your scriptures that you have cited on “faith”, not one of them says faith “ONLY” or “faith “ ALONE”. You are beating a dead horse. You and I are not in disagreement over whether or not faith saves us. We disagree on whether faith “ONLY” saves us. That means you must show, quote or cite scriptures from the Bible that says—not that we must “believe” ROMANS 4:5-8.-—but we “must believe “ONLY” or we we are saved by “belief ALONE.” It’s not there. You are ADDING a word that God has not added. The same with all of the other scriptures you gave as “proof” of your doctrine.

In all of the scriptures that I cited on "faith", not one of them says faith AND works. Hence, FAITH ALONE. I already explained this to you numerous times but I feel like I am just wasting my time beating a dead at this point.

Once again, the Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..). This is not about "faith only" per James 2:24 (empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. Learn the difference.

Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, baptism? Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone. You still don't understand what a genuine believer means by salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone. I might have better luck explaining algebra to my dog than explaining this to you. You JUST DON'T GET IT!

(notice I did not call it Calvinistic this time, but that doesn’t change anything)

What doesn't change is your unbelief.

What you need to show us is just one scripture that teaches we are saved by “faith ONLY, or faith “ALONE”. Will you do that? I don’t think so, because you can’t. You keep saying it, but all of the scriptures you keep holding up as proof only teach that faith saves us, not faith “only” or faith ALONE saves us.

I already showed you many passages of scripture that make it clear man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from additions or modifications" and that you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. You can't show me one scripture that says man is saved by faith AND works. You don't even understand what saving faith is. To you its mere "mental assent" belief (no different than the belief of demons) "conjoined" with works. You leave out trust and reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and "add" your works. Let the boasting begin! All false religions and cults redefine faith to include works, which culminates in works righteousness/works salvation.

There is a huge difference between being saved by faith and being saved by faith ALONE.

There is a huge difference between being saved by faith in Jesus Christ ALONE and being saved by faith AND works. My faith is in Jesus Christ ALONE for salvation and your faith is in works for salvation (with a heavy emphasis on water baptism) and is NOT in Jesus Christ alone. Big difference!

Faith DOES save us, but so does Baptism 1 Peter 3:21,

Keep reading - not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Try reading it all next time. By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself. Noah and his family were saved "through" water and literally by the ARK. Hebrews 11:7 - ..prepared an ark for the saving of his household.. You so desperately want to boast in your baptism. Here is an article below that may help you to see the light.

IS SALVATION BY CHRIST or By Baptism? / Bob L. Ross |

and Repentance Acts 17:30,

Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. Prior to coming to the end result of repentance in receiving salvation (faith in Christ), there are those who must change their mind about specific things in order to get there. Repentance, metanoia, focuses on changing one's mind about their previous concept of God (as in Acts 17:30) and disbelief in God or false beliefs (polytheism and idolatry) about God (see 1 Thessalonians 1:9). On the other hand, this change of mind, focuses on the new direction that change must ultimately take, namely, trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Acts 11:17,18; 20:21)

and CONFESSION Romans 10:10– not 1 scripture that says “faith ALONE.

The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart together (Romans 10:8) so confession is a confirmation of faith (which is why we will be saved if we confess) and is not a work for salvation after we believe unto righteousness, as you teach. Faith is accounted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) which means we are saved at that point. Believers confess by the Holy Spirit (with divine influence) during conversion and after that Jesus is Lord. (1 Corinthians 12:3) You still just don't understand what I mean by salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

By saying we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ alone, I am not implying that repentance never took place or that the word of faith is in our heart but not in our mouth. Not faith alone in that sense. IT"S NO WONDER YOU ARE SO CONFUSED! That is not what I mean by faith alone. What I actually mean by faith alone is that we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Repentance already took place in the process of changing our mind and choosing to place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and the word of faith is in our mouth and heart together (Romans 10:8) so confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Water baptism "follows" salvation through belief/faith. (Acts 8:36-38; 10:43-47; 15:7-9; 16:31-34).

You will have to do better.

Once the blinders are removed you will understand better. See 2 Corinthians 4. Until then everything that I explain to you will just continue to go right over your head.

 

[mailmandan]

Beckworth said: I am surprised that you find it strange that anyone would not use mechanical instruments of music in their worship. If you will do just a little investigation of church history and the writings of the early church fathers you will discover that they understood the Teaching of The New Testament did NOT include mechanical instruments of music in the worship of the early church and therefore instruments were not added to worship in the church until the 8th CENTURY!! For 700 years no instruments were used in the churches. It wasn’t until the early 1800’s that mechanical instruments were commonly used to accompany singing in the churches. Who left the teaching of the New Testament? You? Or me? I guess you believe all of the Christians who lived for 700 years were wrong. No one, for 700 years, understood Eph. 5;19 or Col. 3:16 correctly??

I don't think it's strange that certain churches prefer not to use instruments of music in their worship. To each his own. What I said in post #95 was it seems strange to say that something God thought was a blessing in the Old Testament (instrumental music) is now an evil in the New Testament church.

John Wesley said, “I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship as long as they are neither seen or heard.” And: “Music in the church is as ancient as the apostles but instrumental music is not!”

And he is entitled to his opinion, but his opinion does not negate (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16). Ephesians 5:19 says "..speaking to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.." and correspondingly Colossians 3:16 says to, "..admonish one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." The word "psalm" in the Greek dictionary, definition (#5568): "A set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp, or other instrument)." The root word of psalm means "to twitch, twang or pluck," such as pluck a string of a musical instrument."

Charles Spurgeon one of the greatest Baptist preachers from your own church,

From my church? I'll have to look for him on Sunday morning at my church. No wait a minute, he passed away in 1892. Charles Spurgeon was fond of smoking cigars.

had no trouble understanding that the New Testament did not teach instrumental music was acceptable. Perhaps you will listen to him, even though he believes the same as I do.

Opinions vary, and I will continue to listen to Scripture. (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16). Do you agree with Charles Spurgeon about the gospel? Charles Spurgeon strongly believed in the doctrine of "faith alone" for salvation, asserting that justification before God comes solely through placing trust in Jesus Christ, without any contribution from works. I agree with Charles Spurgeon about that much more critical issue, but you don't.

He said, in referring to 1 Cor. 14:15, “I would as soon PRAY to God with machinery, as SING to God with machinery.” Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services.” (From God Breathed). Other Baptist historians felt the same way: “…Baptist in former times would have soon have tolerated the Pope of Rome in their pulpits as an organ in their galleries, and yet the instrument has gradually found its way among them.” “Fifty years among Baptist”, page 204-207, you don’t even know your own history. And you find us “strange”?

So, did these Baptist preachers condemn other folks for using instrumental music in their church? Like I said before, I don't find it strange that certain folks prefer not to use instrumental music in their church, but I do find it strange that something God thought was a blessing in the Old Testament is now evil in the New Testament church. Campbellites are legalistic about instrumental music in church, since they are very judgmental towards others that do use instrumental music in their church. Even accusing them of having left the faith of the apostles teaching. What a joke! The Restoration movement that gave birth to Campbellism and Mormonism is also a joke! But go ahead and continue to have singing without instrumental music and boast about it. Whatever makes you feel special and exalted. I've heard enough history lessons from Roman Catholics and Seventh Day Adventists to know better than to allow history to dictate my theology.

The church of Christ today did not just “come up” with the idea of a cappella singing. Many, many people much smarter than you and me understood the teaching of the New Testament; that it did not authorize mechanical instruments of music. We have stayed true to the Bible; you are the one who has left the faith of the apostles teaching and the tradition of the early church. It’s not strange at all; if you know the scriptures and church history.

LOL! You have stayed true to the Bible (even though you promote a false gospel) but I am the one who has left the faith of the apostles teaching and the tradition of the early church simply because my church uses instrumental music during worship. How ridiculous! Your argument about the tradition of the early church sounds like the same argument that Roman Catholics make about church tradition. Do you realize how puffed up you sound right now? Roman Catholics get puffed up too when it comes to backing up their beliefs by using history. I can get multiple versions of church history from various churches. I will stick with SCRIPTURE ALONE which is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. If you really like history, then I recommend you read, "Campbellism: Its History and Heresies" by Bob L Ross.

Oh, and as you are so fond of calling us “legalistic” and have stated that the “church of Christ has taken a legalistic approach in forbidding musical instruments in the New Testament”, then I suppose that likewise, the Baptist church was at one time “legalistic” and took “ a legalistic approach in forbidding musical instruments in the Testament.”

I don't find preferring not to use instrumental music during worship in church strange. To each his own. What I find strange is condemning instrumental music during worship in church then self-righteously judging others who use instrumental music in their church as leaving the faith of the apostles. That is legalistic! You basically judge me as condemned over this matter! Where does the Bible condemn instrumental music and others for using instrumental music in the NT? To the contrary we find. (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16)

I guess you find them “strange” also. That would make EVERYONE “legalistic” and “strange” for at least 700 years before the world became “enlightened” enough to realize how strange and “legalistic “ they all were to forbid musical instruments in their worship. You know what?? Now THAT is strange!!

I can see that the church of Christ has really done a number on you.

 

[mailmandan]

Exactly. And we have scripture that supports your point. Acts 16:30, the jailer asked “what must I do to be saved?”. In verse 31 they told him to believe, in verse 32 they taught him the gospel,

The answer to the question, "what must I do to be saved" in Acts 16:30 was clearly answered in Acts 16:31, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your household. (if they also believe). Notice the answer was not, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and get baptized and you will be saved." Water baptism followed saving belief, just as it did in (Acts 10:43-47). The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

in verse 33 he showed fruits of “repentance” (washed their stripes) and was “baptized”.

Fruit of repentance but not the essence of repentance (change of mind) and the new direction of that change of mind was believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Water baptism followed as the fruit of repentance/believing/salvation but not the root.

In verse 34, he rejoiced HAVING BELIEVED IN GOD with all his house. This is exactly what you are saying. “Believe” was a packaged term used to include ALL he did to be saved, including repentance and baptism which are also commanded by God through the scriptures.

Repentance precedes believing unto salvation, yet water baptism "follows" believing unto salvation, so your package deal is in error and culminates in salvation by works, contrary to Scripture. They believed in God with all his before, during and after baptism.

Glad you pointed that out for us.

I'm glad as well so that I could correct that package deal error which culminates in salvation by works.

 

[mailmandan]

“Sometimes the word “faith” is a packaged term that includes all that you do to obey the gospel plan of salvation” — BJ Clarke

Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

 

[HeIsHere]

Mk. 16:16.

many scholars consider this passage to be "additional text" not found in the earliest manuscripts

And proof that faith alone does NOT save, James 2;24.

Spiritual salvation is not focus in James.
He is writing to people who have heard and know the Gospel.
Neither does he provide a plan of spiritual salvation in the text.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

If you think (abiding and walking ) will save you spiritually then I would disagree.

Jhn 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[HeIsHere]

Repentance is actually a change of mind which "precedes" believing in Christ unto salvation (Acts 11:17,18; 20:21)

Agree .. metanoia (turning away from and towards).
And "mind" in ancient culture meant so much more, it was one's whole being, the very seat of man.
And to be clear this word, in and of itself, is not about sorrow for sins.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Written to and about the Jews under the Old Testament. This not only does not apply to “Christians” but it was written BEFORE the church of Christ was in existence; even before Christ was born into the world.

Seeing how you reject Psalm 150, do you similarly reject other Psalms?

Psalm 23?

Psalm 91?

Shall I go on?

 

[HeIsHere]

Amen! That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, giving Him all the glory, honor and merit for our salvation. Instead, works-salvationists boast in self - self promotion, self righteousness and self preservation. For such folks, their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

I think I missed this post.
They are given a non gospel of pride.... "turn from your sin" ... seems logical that it would become a works based system.
I can only state ... Amen.

 

[CommodoreTeach]

Circumcision was the law. Any who did not do it were cut off from Israel and the promises to Abraham. No way for such to have been saved.

Romans 4:9 - 13
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[HeIsHere]

Jhn 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Do you need me to exegete this further in context?

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Do you need me to exegete this further in context?

I don't need anything, but go ahead.

 

[HeIsHere]

I can see that the church of Christ has really done a number on you.

Yes agree.

 

[mailmandan]

Do you need me to exegete this further in context?

Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who did not abide and there is a reason for that. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

 

[HeIsHere]

Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who did not abide and there is a reason for that. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

Seems to me abiding is about bearing fruit, not a passage which is dealing directly with salvation.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Seems to me abiding is about bearing fruit, not a passage which is dealing directly with salvation.

Is this your exegesis, or should I be expecting more than what it seems to you?

 

[CommodoreTeach]

Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who did not abide and there is a reason for that. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

I take from John that Judas Iscariot never believed.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

 

[mailmandan]

Seems to me abiding is about bearing fruit, not a passage which is dealing directly with salvation.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only elite saints do but all genuine believers. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

It would be impossible to abide in Christ and never bear any fruit at all. Although all genuine believers are fruitful, not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Jhn 15:1
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jhn 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jhn 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Jhn 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Jhn 15:7
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Jhn 15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Are the branches which God takes away from the true vine, which is Christ, saved?

Are the branches which are withered, gathered, cast into the fire, and burned saved?

Let's not kid/delude ourselves.

Salvation has everything to do with abiding in Christ.

 

[Beckworth]

Yes agree.

I don’t know about you, but I have been discussing SCRIPTURE. But if you woujd like to discuss the church if Christ, I would love the opportunity to introduce you to it.