Is Open Theism Heresy?

[posthuman]

is it possible to take na open view but not take it to the point of denying His omniscience.

by narrowly redefining 'omniscience' - - saying most things are impossible to know, but God knows what is possible to know. the hinge point is their axiomatic belief that human agency is unpredictable, so that God's knowledge is limited by man's ways.

i suppose it also must be redefined, 'with God all things are possible' - with Him whatever is possible, is possible, but not all things are possible?

 

[Believer08]

by narrowly redefining 'omniscience' - - saying most things are impossible to know, but God knows what is possible to know. the hinge point is their axiomatic belief that human agency is unpredictable, so that God's knowledge is limited by man's ways.

i suppose it also must be redefined, 'with God all things are possible' - with Him whatever is possible, is possible, but not all things are possible?

I believe God knows all about whatever He wants to know all about. As long as someone is not believing that God cannot know the future or does not know due to not having the ability, then I think it’s ok. As long as one still believes He’s all knowing of the future, and doesn’t deny His ability or authority. When people begin saying He cannot know or does not know by suggesting He doesn’t have the ability, then that’s where the danger comes in.

 

[John146]

I haven't added anything to Scripture. Interpreting Scripture with a narrow mind and coming to a dumb conclusion is not good Bible study.

Did God say he would destroy them in forty days? Yes
Did God destroy them in forty days? No

1. God lied
2. God changed his mind based upon Nineveh’s response to his word.

I’m sorry to be so simple and narrow minded, but that’s what happened.

 

[GWH]

I believe God knows all about whatever He wants to know all about. As long as someone is not believing that God cannot know the future or does not know due to not having the ability, then I think it’s ok. As long as one still believes He’s all knowing of the future, and doesn’t deny His ability or authority. When people begin saying He cannot know or does not know by suggesting He doesn’t have the ability, then that’s where the danger comes in.

Just as regarding divine omniscience it seems absurd to say that God can make a rock too big for Him to move, so also regarding omniscience, it seems absurd to believe that God can know whether a volitional or morally accountable soul will choose to accept Jesus as Lord before the person even exists, and if God forces souls to choose Christ or not, then that would make the biblical history of God's POS absurd. This makes belief in MFW the preferred interpretation of problematic Scriptures IMO.

 

[Believer08]

Just as regarding divine omniscience it seems absurd to say that God can make a rock too big for Him to move, so also regarding omniscience, it seems absurd to believe that God can know whether a volitional or morally accountable soul will choose to accept Jesus as Lord before the person even exists, and if God forces souls to choose Christ or not, then that would make the biblical history of God's POS absurd. This makes belief in MFW the preferred interpretation of problematic Scriptures IMO.

I’m not sure if I’m understanding your post. Are you saying God cannot know something? May I ask why you believe that?

 

[posthuman]

I believe God knows all about whatever He wants to know all about. As long as someone is not believing that God cannot know the future or does not know due to not having the ability, then I think it’s ok. As long as one still believes He’s all knowing of the future, and doesn’t deny His ability or authority. When people begin saying He cannot know or does not know by suggesting He doesn’t have the ability, then that’s where the danger comes in.

i think i understand; you are thinking, there is nothing He cannot know, even what any person will do or think. but He purposefully hides knowledge from Himself, choosing not to know some things?

 

[GWH]

I’m not sure if I’m understanding your post. Are you saying God cannot know something? May I ask why you believe that?

Before I answer, are you saying that God cannot make something too big for Him to move?

If so, may I ask why you believe that?

 

[Believer08]

Before I answer, are you saying that God cannot make something too big for Him to move?

If so, may I ask why you believe that?

Do what?

 

[Believer08]

Before I answer, are you saying that God cannot make something too big for Him to move?

If so, may I ask why you believe that?

God has the power to do all that is logically possible and consistent with His nature. This means that God cannot do things that are inherently contradictory or nonsensical. God can accomplish anything that aligns with His character and will. God's power is not limited but is also aligned with His character.

 

[GWH]

God has the power to do all that is logically possible and consistent with His nature. This means that God cannot do things that are inherently contradictory or nonsensical. God can accomplish anything that aligns with His character and will. God's power is not limited but is also aligned with His character.

Yes, with His character and POS.

 

[PaulThomson]

It is not a non-sequitur at all. You basically said that God knows certain things some days, but not all days, so my question and comment were spot on.

Anyhow, you can continue arguing against God's foreknowledge all that you want to. The irony here is that God foreknew that you would. Whatever floats (sinks) your boat.

I told you that

@PaulThomson, did you put me on your ignore list?

Not that I know of.

 

[John146]

i think i understand; you are thinking, there is nothing He cannot know, even what any person will do or think. but He purposefully hides knowledge from Himself, choosing not to know some things?

Your sins and iniquities, I remember no more. Can God choose to not remember our sins?

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Your sins and iniquities, I remember no more. Can God choose to not remember our sins?

Are you really asking this question? God remembers our sins no more because Christ has borne the guilt of them on our behalf. In other words, the debt no longer exists because it has been paid by Christ. How does this allegedly prove that God does not have foreknowledge? It proves no such thing. This is just another desperate attempt by you to disparage God.

 

[PaulThomson]

It might help people here to answer this question if you first provide a good working definition of what open theism is.

Open theism reads the Bible with a different understanding of the nature of time from those who believe in exhaustive divine foreknowledge. Exhaustive divine foreknowledge imagines time from God's perspective as like a rectangular prism/block with one end displaying the state of affairs when God created light, and subsequent slices of the prism displaying the state of creation in subsequent microseconds. It imagines time from God's perspective as a block already completed from the first instant of creation into infinity, God able to see and comprehend in one instant all the data in all the slices stretching into infinity.

Open theism considers that no slices after the present yet exist from God's perspective to be known as truth, the present slice as existing NOW and known as truth, and the past slices as no longer existing from God's perspective but remembered perfectly as truth. Hence, to the Open Theist, the future is not settled, but is open to a variety of possibilities. Open theists do not presuppose time as a completed infinitely long block, and so, although they read the same Bible as closed theists, they do not see God as irrevocably committed to one single possible future unfolding. Open theists can accept the Bible as written, and interpret fewer passages as figures of speech than exhaustive divine pre-determinists need to do to make scripture match their own presuppositions about God's relationship to time.

 

[PaulThomson]

again, emptying Jesus was stepping out of Glory to become as man. God became man he never stopped being God

Yes. Jesus of Nazareth in a foetus in Mary was the same self-aware centre of consciousness who has always existed and who participated in the creation of the universe.

 

[PaulThomson]

by narrowly redefining 'omniscience' - - saying most things are impossible to know, but God knows what is possible to know. the hinge point is their axiomatic belief that human agency is unpredictable, so that God's knowledge is limited by man's ways.

i suppose it also must be redefined, 'with God all things are possible' - with Him whatever is possible, is possible, but not all things are possible?

So, in the Holy Spirit it is possible to poison a city's water supply?

 

[HeIsHere]

Open theism considers that no slices after the present yet exist from God's perspective to be known as truth, the present slice as existing NOW and known as truth, and the past slices as no longer existing from God's perspective but remembered perfectly as truth. Hence, to the Open Theist, the future is not settled, but is open to a variety of possibilities. Open theists do not presuppose time as a completed infinitely long block, and so, although they read the same Bible as closed theists, they do not see God as irrevocably committed to one single possible future unfolding. Open theists can accept the Bible as written, and interpret fewer passages as figures of speech than exhaustive divine pre-determinists need to do to make scripture match their own presuppositions about God's relationship to time.

This explains the view very well.

the future is not settled, but is open to a variety of possibilities.

I would say God knows all the infinite possibilities.
I think there is a difference between causation and knowledge.

they do not see God as irrevocably committed to one single possible future unfolding.

I find this very interesting.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Hence, to the Open Theist, the future is not settled, but is open to a variety of possibilities.

The future is settled. Christians will be a part of the first resurrection, and they will reign and rule with Christ for 1000 years. At the end of those 1000 years, Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. Again, at the end of those 1000 years, there will be a second resurrection which will coincide with the Great White Throne Judgment, and anybody whose name is not found in the Lamb's book of life will similarly be cast into the lake of fire. After this, the new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem will come.

Oh, wait! Maybe not! Maybe there exists a variety of other possibilities!

What you are suggesting is pure nonsense.

 

[John146]

The future is settled. Christians will be a part of the first resurrection, and they will reign and rule with Christ for 1000 years. At the end of those 1000 years, Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. Again, at the end of those 1000 years, there will be a second resurrection which will coincide with the Great White Throne Judgment, and anybody whose name is not found in the Lamb's book of life will similarly be cast into the lake of fire. After this, the new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem will come.

Oh, wait! Maybe not! Maybe there exists a variety of other possibilities!

What you are suggesting is pure nonsense.

Things that have been declared in scripture as future prophecy are going to take place. But on the other hand, all other future events and decisions by man are not prophecy. I don't see your point.

 

[GWH]

So, in the Holy Spirit it is possible to poison a city's water supply?

Not per these TOP:

TOP #12: A depraved mind is manifested by wickedness. [RM 1:28] The following three TOP list several forms of depravity.

TOP #13: Wickedness or evil includes the sins of greed, murder, strife, deceit and malice. [RM 1:29] Jesus condemned the hatred of the Pharisees as akin to murder and lying in JN 8:44. and Paul said greed is a root of many sins in 1TM 6:10 (cf. 2TM 3:2).

TOP #14: Sins of God-haters or atheists also include gossip, slander, insolence, arrogance, and pride. [RM 1:30] Many OT passages identify pride as a root of many sins that precedes destruction (PR 16:18).

TOP #15: Additional sins include disobedience of parents and being senseless, faithless, heartless and ruthless. [RM 1:30b-31] Honoring one’s parents is one of the Ten Commandments (EX 20:12).

TOP #16: Those who sin deserve death. [RM 1:32, cf. 3:23]

TOP #17: God’s judgment of sinners is based on Truth. [RM 2:2]

TOP #18: Those who ignore God’s urging of repentance will reap divine wrath on the day of judgment. [RM 2:3-5]

TOP #19: On Judgment Day God will enforce just punishment via souls reaping what they have sown or done. [RM 2:5-6]