The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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This is a great question, because I'd like to say yes too, and be done with it. The thing is that I know that I was in unbelief when He saved me, and now see that I could have never believed, for real, before He opened my eyes. So I think the answer is still yes, but it's not something we can "fix" ourselves.
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Interesting.
Firstly I don't believe Jesus came to save people from their sins.
I believe Jesus came to save people from the sin of unbelief.
That is why the Holy Spirit was sent when Jesus ascended to heaven.
John 16:8-9
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
If one repents from their sin of unbelief then their sins are forgiven.
When we think about such sins after belief the Holy Spirit works within us to reveal what we have done wrong, fess up (I got it wrong) confess it.
To confess is to agree we got it wrong, ask the Holy Spirit to help us and conform us to the image of Jesus.
I do not believe as some that the following means repentance
1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
The word confess is not repentance.
It's to acknowledge we got it wrong.
There are thoughts/theological scholars believe John is addressing gnostics here.
Firstly I don't believe Jesus came to save people from their sins.
I believe Jesus came to save people from the sin of unbelief.
That is why the Holy Spirit was sent when Jesus ascended to heaven.
John 16:8-9
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
If one repents from their sin of unbelief then their sins are forgiven.
When we think about such sins after belief the Holy Spirit works within us to reveal what we have done wrong, fess up (I got it wrong) confess it.
To confess is to agree we got it wrong, ask the Holy Spirit to help us and conform us to the image of Jesus.
I do not believe as some that the following means repentance
1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
The word confess is not repentance.
It's to acknowledge we got it wrong.
There are thoughts/theological scholars believe John is addressing gnostics here.
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Saved from the penalty of sin that separates us from God?
The sin of unbelief?
Who are his people in the verse?
Is it not the Jews?
If so the Jews were waiting for the Messiah, yes they were but not Jesus.
That's why they crucified him.
Acts 19:4
4 Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people that they should believe in the One who would come after him, that is, in Jesus.”
The sin of unbelief?
Who are his people in the verse?
Is it not the Jews?
If so the Jews were waiting for the Messiah, yes they were but not Jesus.
That's why they crucified him.
Acts 19:4
4 Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people that they should believe in the One who would come after him, that is, in Jesus.”
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In Matthew 1:21, it says...He will save His people from their sins...plural.
In context, this is probably speaking first of the Jews, but His people include all who get saved. And what it states is that they were saved from sins, and not the particular sin of unbelief.
Also, calling upon the name of the Lord is not a new thing. Men began to call upon the name of the Lord as early as Genesis 4.
Do you believe OT saints were saved differently from NT saints?
In context, this is probably speaking first of the Jews, but His people include all who get saved. And what it states is that they were saved from sins, and not the particular sin of unbelief.
Also, calling upon the name of the Lord is not a new thing. Men began to call upon the name of the Lord as early as Genesis 4.
Do you believe OT saints were saved differently from NT saints?
What sins are they?
How does relate to
John 16:8-9
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;?
Grear question about the OT saints.
Being totally honest I'm unsure.
I believe the OT saints saved as follows
Romans 4:1-8
Abraham Justified by Faith
(Gen. 17:10)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
As for the non saints I have no idea.
Were they covered the sacrifices decreed by God?
I hope so, it seems unfair if not, but then again I'm not God.
Good chat brother.
I enjoy chewing the cud as we say over here.
How does relate to
John 16:8-9
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;?
Grear question about the OT saints.
Being totally honest I'm unsure.
I believe the OT saints saved as follows
Romans 4:1-8
Abraham Justified by Faith
(Gen. 17:10)
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
As for the non saints I have no idea.
Were they covered the sacrifices decreed by God?
I hope so, it seems unfair if not, but then again I'm not God.
Good chat brother.
I enjoy chewing the cud as we say over here.
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Statistically, around 4% of church goers are born again. Billy Graham was quoted as saying that he would be happy if 4% of those who "made a decision" were actually born again.
An old time Pentecostal pastor I knew said this: "Three kinds of people go to church. Believers, unbelievers and make believers." It's make believers who make life difficult for others. Unbelievers may say something like, "If this is Christianity, I don't want it." Young believers may be bewildered and confused by the make believers. This is not a problem in countries where the church is persecuted. In some ways, the worst thing to happen to the church was when Constantine made it the state religion. The church was flooded with phonies who paid lip service to ensure that they stayed in Constantine's good books.
An old time Pentecostal pastor I knew said this: "Three kinds of people go to church. Believers, unbelievers and make believers." It's make believers who make life difficult for others. Unbelievers may say something like, "If this is Christianity, I don't want it." Young believers may be bewildered and confused by the make believers. This is not a problem in countries where the church is persecuted. In some ways, the worst thing to happen to the church was when Constantine made it the state religion. The church was flooded with phonies who paid lip service to ensure that they stayed in Constantine's good books.
I believe Matthew 1 and 16 are referring 2 different things. Matthew 1 is dealing with the ministry Jesus and the cross. Matthew 16 is dealing with the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the gospel. I can enlarge upon it if you like.
As far as salvation goes, I believe it has always been by grace through faith. I find in scripture a progressive gradualism. That is to say, God didn't simply reveal truth with suddenness, but has revealed it over time. This doesn't mean truth hasn't always been the truth; only that God had yet to reveal it more fully.
If you go through the book of Genesis, you can find the plan of salvation:
Genesis 3...God provides a sacrifice for forgiveness of sin.
Genesis 3...God provides a covering, a symbol of the righteous covering necessary to have peace with God.
Genesis 4...men began to call on the name of the Lord. Reminds one of Romans 10:9-10.
Genesis 6...Noah finds grace in the sight of the Lord...Ephesians 2:8.
Genesis 12...by faith Abraham responds to God...Ephesians 2:8
More questions: has Romans 9:8-9 always been true? Has someone in the flesh always displeased God? Did Abraham ever please God? If so, was he in the Spirit? Could he have been in the Spirit without the indwelling Spirit?
I'm enjoying the discussion as well. Much appreciated.
As far as salvation goes, I believe it has always been by grace through faith. I find in scripture a progressive gradualism. That is to say, God didn't simply reveal truth with suddenness, but has revealed it over time. This doesn't mean truth hasn't always been the truth; only that God had yet to reveal it more fully.
If you go through the book of Genesis, you can find the plan of salvation:
Genesis 3...God provides a sacrifice for forgiveness of sin.
Genesis 3...God provides a covering, a symbol of the righteous covering necessary to have peace with God.
Genesis 4...men began to call on the name of the Lord. Reminds one of Romans 10:9-10.
Genesis 6...Noah finds grace in the sight of the Lord...Ephesians 2:8.
Genesis 12...by faith Abraham responds to God...Ephesians 2:8
More questions: has Romans 9:8-9 always been true? Has someone in the flesh always displeased God? Did Abraham ever please God? If so, was he in the Spirit? Could he have been in the Spirit without the indwelling Spirit?
I'm enjoying the discussion as well. Much appreciated.
The only verse I can think of that might be helpful regarding your questions is Jude 6, "The angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these He has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great day."
This verse (sandwiched between the unfaithful exodusers and the Sodomites) is part of a list of examples of ungodly people perverting God's grace and denying Jesus Christ as Lord (v.4), (which I think should make you worried about losing my bet :^)
This verse (sandwiched between the unfaithful exodusers and the Sodomites) is part of a list of examples of ungodly people perverting God's grace and denying Jesus Christ as Lord (v.4), (which I think should make you worried about losing my bet :^)