Just a reminder…and yes, it goes for me too!!

[HeIsHere]

Freely keeping the gift is no more work than freely accepting it.
It is by faith from beginning to end. (RM 1:17)

Accepting the gift means that the person has accepted the payment of debt paid.... in full.
The recipient cannot assume the debt again >>> justified

Paul is proclaiming salvation has always been by faith, not about keeping faith.
Faith has already given us the gift of salvation, from there God helps to understand how to live outwardly our inward sanctification.

 

[HeIsHere]

It just goes to the gist of my first reply, about how we as a nation have gotten less understanding, and more inclined to instantly "fight" over matters of personal preference, or conscience.
Most of the arguments in the BDF are over matters of conscience... personal beliefs that happen to be different from each other.
We should be able to state our beliefs, and then discuss differences of opinion without the "if you don't believe exactly as I do, then you are a sinner/not saved/a calvinist/yada, yada..... .
I believe it is one of the prime identifiers of an immature person... the lack of an ability to disagree, and still be friends...

I also think there was a time when many people had a common foundation here and understanding of the Gospel, that has been eroded as many have left, sadly.

But I absolutely agree, there has been a tremendous effort to polarize people on every topic and it has worked,

 

[hornetguy]

I also think there was a time when many people had a common foundation here and understanding of the Gospel, that has been eroded as many have left, sadly.

But I absolutely agree, there has been a tremendous effort to polarize people on every topic and it has worked,

Out of curiosity.... what do you see as having been lost, in the common simple beliefs of the gospel message?

 

[HeIsHere]

Out of curiosity.... what do you see as having been lost, in the common simple beliefs of the gospel message?

Having been here in the past, perhaps a bit before your join date, I do think the doctrine of eternal security was far more dominant

(not sure if you have that view, I hope you do) there were however, a few of the Hebrew Roots movement people and definitely the

legalists, but it seemed to me at the time much more consensus that works were a by-product of salvation not part of salvation.

What was once considered a false gospel of works/losable salvation has become the norm, my impression anyway and since you asked.

 

[homwardbound]

Amazing, the good news returns, God loves us all y'all
start your new life there, in a relief sigh to God fro Son's done work to give you new life of Love to all, not a few anymore, thank you love the posts here to hear
thank you Father and Son wow is me as in Isaiah 6:1-7

 

[GWH]

Accepting the gift means that the person has accepted the payment of debt paid.... in full.
The recipient cannot assume the debt again >>> justified

Paul is proclaiming salvation has always been by faith, not about keeping faith.
Faith has already given us the gift of salvation, from there God helps to understand how to live outwardly our inward sanctification.

Re "Paul is proclaiming salvation has always been by faith, not about keeping faith.":

As a person who was raised as a P-Baptist, I understand why you say that, but when I studied the issue for myself I found the following Scriptures, and notice how many are by Paul.

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Understand that persevering faith is no different from saving faith. Saving faith is viewed as a moment in time, and persevering faith begins one moment later--and faith is not meritorious but merely willingness to glorify God's grace.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

sound doctrine based on the clear Gospel.

A CLEAR Gospel

Yes, The Gospel Should Be C.L.E.A.R.-ly presented, but I believe this portion has been
Mostly "left out", as "the chief of sinners", our 'pattern' (1 Timothy 1:15-16 AV), Paul did
not leave out in his preaching to a Trembling Felix (Acts 24:25 cp Romans 1:32 AV):

God's Undiluted Wrath { as to WHY we ALL Need God's } Undiluted GRACE!

Amen.

ps. Instead of 5 different [ alones? ], I prefer the better grammatical structure of:

"By Grace Through Faith, In Christ, By The Scriptures, To The Glory Of God" Alone!!

 

[HeIsHere]

Re "Paul is proclaiming salvation has always been by faith, not about keeping faith.":

As a person who was raised as a P-Baptist, I understand why you say that, but when I studied the issue for myself I found the following Scriptures, and notice how many are by Paul.

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Understand that persevering faith is no different from saving faith. Saving faith is viewed as a moment in time, and persevering faith begins one moment later--and faith is not meritorious but merely willingness to glorify God's grace.

That is a long list but I am sure that each can be put in the correct perspective of eternal security because eternal security is the Gospel.

I will try for one a day.

But you have not really shown me how a person can indebted once again when a debt that has been paid in full?

 

[hornetguy]

Having been here in the past, perhaps a bit before your join date, I do think the doctrine of eternal security was far more dominant

(not sure if you have that view, I hope you do) there were however, a few of the Hebrew Roots movement people and definitely the

legalists, but it seemed to me at the time much more consensus that works were a by-product of salvation not part of salvation.

What was once considered a false gospel of works/losable salvation has become the norm, my impression anyway and since you asked.

I tend to agree with those statements.
I do, however, believe that we can willingly give up our salvation... if we willingly choose to stop believing in our salvation, and in the Lordship of Jesus... I believe that is the unforgiveable sin... refusing the gift of salvation. God will not save us against our will.... I do not believe that we have to be "good enough" to merit salvation.... but, I do believe that good works are expected of us, as believers. God does not want armchair quarterbacks. Jesus spoke many times about what we are to DO as believers. And, simply sitting back, saying "I believe" was never on the list... it was a little more hands-on than that... remember .... feed the hungry, clothe the naked..... those kinds of things.

 

[HeIsHere]

I tend to agree with those statements.
I do, however, believe that we can willingly give up our salvation... if we willingly choose to stop believing in our salvation, and in the Lordship of Jesus... I believe that is the unforgiveable sin... refusing the gift of salvation. God will not save us against our will.... I do not believe that we have to be "good enough" to merit salvation.... but, I do believe that good works are expected of us, as believers. God does not want armchair quarterbacks. Jesus spoke many times about what we are to DO as believers. And, simply sitting back, saying "I believe" was never on the list... it was a little more hands-on than that... remember .... feed the hungry, clothe the naked..... those kinds of things.

It is what it is then.

 

[hornetguy]

But you have not really shown me how a person can indebted once again when a debt that has been paid in full?

If a person rejects the payment that was made in his behalf, then his debt is not paid. If I stood in front of you and held out a $100 dollar bill and told you "this is yours.... just take it".... but you refused to take it? A gift, in order to BE a gift, must be accepted....

 

[HeIsHere]

If a person rejects the payment that was made in his behalf, then his debt is not paid. If I stood in front of you and held out a $100 dollar bill and told you "this is yours.... just take it".... but you refused to take it? A gift, in order to BE a gift, must be accepted....

Yes agree, once the gift is accepted all debt, past present and future wiped clean because that is the gift as defined by Christ Jesus.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

God's Undiluted Wrath { as to WHY we ALL Need God's } Undiluted GRACE!

Precious friends, I too was guilty of "leaving this out" so I updated my own study:

Grace, Peace, Mercy, And Love!

Thanks for your kind and Careful attention to God's Most Important Doctrine.

Amen.

cc: @HeIsHere and @homwardbound

 

[GWH]

That is a long list but I am sure that each can be put in the correct perspective of eternal security because eternal security is the Gospel.

I will try for one a day.

But you have not really shown me how a person can indebted once again when a debt that has been paid in full?

Security is eternal if souls/a soul:

MT 10:22, “stands firm to the end”

RM 11:22, “continue in his kindness”

1CR 15:2, “hold firmly to the word”

GL 5:4, “[are not] fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope”

2THS 1:4-5, “[have] perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials”

2TM 2:12, “endure”

HB 3:6&14, “hold on to our courage and the hope… firmly till the end”

HB 6:4-6, “[do not] fall away”

HB 10:26-36, “[do not ] deliberately keep on sinning [or] throw away your confidence [but instead] persevere”

JM 1:12, “perseveres under trial [and] stood the test”

2PT 1:10-11, “make your calling and election sure [and] never fall”

2PT 2:20, “are [not] again entangled”

1JN 2:24-25, “[keep] what you have heard from the beginning”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love”

RV 2:10, “Be faithful, even to the point of death”

Understand that persevering faith is no different from saving faith. Saving faith is viewed as a moment in time called conversion, and persevering faith begins one moment later--and faith is not meritorious but merely willingness to glorify God's grace.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Yes, God's Salvation Is Eternal! According To All The Scriptures of Paul
To The Body Of Christ, According To The Preaching Of The Revelation Of
The Mystery!:

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Amen.

 

[PAC-fit]

wrong, grasshopper.

Inclined to agree brother since the day I stumbled onto this, ,

And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. (Phil 3:15)

Mature expounding in His hands could lift that understanding, but then, sounds as though it would need His guidance through those gray areas, in particular.

 

[PAC-fit]

It's often a waste of time engaging in online discussions or debates about doctrine or theology on social media. Social media platforms foster shallow discussions, where comments quickly spiral out of control, deviating from the original topic. Brief, simplistic answers are easily misinterpreted and picked apart. And due to living in an impatient culture conditioned for brevity due to some sites only allowing a limited amount of words or a time limit on videos, most long posts won’t even get read. Doctrine and theology requires in-depth discussion of studying God's word, not sound bites or cryptic statements. Meaningful progress is unlikely in online convos, and people often remain unconvinced even after being presented with opposing views.

The internet has led people to express themselves more aggressively, saying things they wouldn't normally say face-to-face. This has created a culture of reckless commentary and criticism. When online discussions descend into name-calling, misrepresentation, and refusal to listen, it's time to set boundaries. Spiritual principles remind us that there's a limit to how much energy we should invest in fruitless conversations (Matthew 7:6, Mark 6:11, Acts 18:6)

Being uncivil, unkind, merciless, aggressive, etc etc will no doubt hinder the goal of reaching someone to the truth. Speaking the truth in love is all but lost on social media. The term love has been redefined by bombarding people with verse grenades, labeling them, being aggressive, and always wanting to get the last word. Since when has the truth been a baseball bat to beat people with it?

When someone possesses the truth and shares it in a manner that is unbecoming of a Christian - with anger, condescension, or disdain - it can ultimately harm the cause of truth and play into the hands of Satan. This is because the unchristian delivery can alienate or offend the intended audience, causing them to reject the truth altogether. Furthermore, when truth is presented in a cold and harsh manner, while false or erroneous ideas are shared with kindness, compassion, and empathy, Satan gains a double victory. Not only is the truth hindered from taking root, but the error is also made more palatable and appealing, leading people further astray. This highlights the importance of sharing the truth in love, with gentleness, respect, and compassion, so that the message is not only conveyed, but also received and embraced.

Not everyone is at the same place in their spiritual development or level of understanding (1 Cor. 3:2, 2 Peter 3:18, Hebrews 5:13-14, 1 Peter 2:2), and just because someone holds different views does not deem them as one who is not desiring to seek the truth. Telling someone you care about their soul as opposed to telling them they're going to hell has quite different effects and outcomes. Without actually expressing it, we can convey to someone that they are headed for hell.

The most significant thing is one's redemption (Matthew 16:26, Luke 9:25, Mark 8:36-37). How many of us have led a soul to Christ or back to Christ by being outright hateful or redefining love to be in your face and aggressive?

It's undeniable that the truth can be unsettling and even offensive to some people, as it often challenges their deeply held beliefs, values, or perspectives. However, just because the truth has the potential to offend, it doesn't give us the license to present it in a way that is intentionally hurtful, condescending, or aggressive. The fact that truth can be offensive is not a justification for us to use it as a weapon to wound or demean others. Rather, it's our responsibility to communicate the truth in a way that is respectful, compassionate, and constructive, even if it's uncomfortable or challenging for the recipient to hear. By doing so, we can help create an environment where the truth can be received and considered, rather than immediately rejected or resisted due to its offensive presentation.

We should not be puffed up, haughty, or think of ourselves as more highly than we ought. We are not called to win an argument. We are not called to show our superiority. We are to never feel we cannot be taught or are above correction.

When we approach teaching or sharing our beliefs with others, it's essential to avoid an arrogant attitude that assumes we possess all the truth and the other person is ignorant. This kind of superiority complex will only lead to ineffective communication and a breakdown in relationships. We'll never guide someone towards repentance or a deeper understanding of the truth by adopting an 'I'm right, you're wrong' mentality. Instead, we need to cultivate empathy and understanding, acknowledging that others may struggle with certain concepts or ideas. When someone expresses difficulty in grasping a particular truth, such as the nature of evil or hell, we must resist the temptation to belittle or mock their perspective. Rather, we should seek to understand their thought process, gently guiding them through scripture and reasoning.

This approach applies not only to our interactions with those outside the faith but also to our relationships with fellow believers. When discussing sensitive topics or working through differences in interpretation, we must maintain a spirit of meekness, gentleness, and humility. Correction and guidance should be offered in a loving and non-confrontational manner, rather than as a means of asserting power or dominance.

Teaching and sharing our faith are not about exercising control or authority over others. Rather, we are mere vessels, instruments in God's service, seeking to allow the light of His Word to shine through us. Wisdom is often about taking a step back, listening to others, and being willing to learn from their perspectives.

The Christian life is not about seizing power or advantage; it's about serving others in humility and gentleness. When we recognize our strengths and advantages, we should use them to uplift and support others, rather than to further our own interests. By embracing this mindset, we can create an environment where meaningful discussions can take place, and where the truth can be shared in a loving and effective manner.

James 4:6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.

Here is a quote I heard that sums it up nicely “We cannot be God’s people..we cannot be Christian..if we are not people of love. We as Christians have the responsibility to show the world the love that God would have us to show. John says “God is love” (1 John 4:8), and those who are God’s children are those who love. If we don’t love, then we aren’t God’s children. Love, is one of the ways that “we walk worthy” (Eph. 5:2, 1 John 1:5, 7, Eph. 4:2, Col. 1:10, 1 Thess. 2:12). Love one another. Love our enemies. We are to expound and express love as God’s people. We should love all people. And there should be no room whatsoever in our hearts for hating anyone. No matter how they may treat us, we do not have the right or the prerogative to hate that person. Jesus says love your enemies (Matt. 5:44) Everything that we do as Christians, should be motivated by love. If it’s not motivated by love then it’s worthless (1 Cor. 13:1-3).”

Welcome to the forum!

That was a heft of a word of good advice, in turn, if as you say it applies to you too, may I say, can't help but wonder how can such a faultless post author lose sight that easily. Forgive my intrusive abuse and hope you find the forum as inspirational as I.

 

[HeIsHere]

MT 10:22, “stands firm to the end”

Well you still have not dealt with the paid in full issue, my experience is people cannot get around that specific declaration of God that states Justified!!!

This one is easy in context it about being physically saved in the time of tribulation, notice the word ... flee

21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

It is called the semantic range of the word and the context determines the meaning. See now in Italian we use "salvare" quite often in idioms and metaphorically so I get this range idea very well.
One down, no worries I know all the verses, always love when Hebrews comes up.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, God's Salvation Is Eternal! According To All The Scriptures of Paul
To The Body Of Christ, According To The Preaching Of The Revelation Of
The Mystery!:

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Amen.

View attachment 273212

Powerful post you linked back to ... 2021, woah, where does the time go!!

All Of The Above Are Because Of The "FINISHED" Work Of CHRIST
On The CROSS, For God's Glory And GRACE! {NOT "what WE do/don't do!"}

Amen!

 

[GWH]

Well you still have not dealt with the paid in full issue, my experience is people cannot get around that specific declaration of God that states Justified!!!

This one is easy in context it about being physically saved in the time of tribulation, notice the word ... flee

21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

It is called the semantic range of the word and the context determines the meaning. See now in Italian we use "salvare" quite often in idioms and metaphorically so I get this range idea very well.
One down, no worries I know all the verses, always love when Hebrews comes up.

You mean that Paul and the writers of the rest of the 16 quotes have not dealt with the paid in full issue.