The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Kroogz]

It seems like a lot of confusion is arguing against two kinds of people. Those who were never saved according to the Bible, and those who were saved according to the Bible, who fell away, departed, etc etc.

That’s why people can usually never reach an agreement, is because they argue over two different things.

“I never knew you” could equal “I never knew this version of you”. In other words, you have become a different person who stopped listening and obeying. You stopped doing the will of the Father.

I knew the faithful version of you, but never knew the rebellious side of the individual who they have become. I never knew you, depart from me.

Unless we are saved from the womb.....God knows every version of believers.

Saved/justified we become a personal relationship with the Lord. An unsaved person has NEVER had a personal relationship.

"in that day"~~~Judgement day. Great white throne judgement....."I never knew(Intimately/personally) you."

 

[Magenta]

Then no one knows who is saved then according to OSAS.

What's that got to do with anything, or more specifically, anything I said? Neither the
minister I knew nor Gretta believed they were saved. They did not even believe in God!

 

[Believer08]

If someone is completely devoted to studying God’s word and are devoted to God’s word, would you say they are saved at that moment? But the moment they stop, they never were? What gives anyone any assurance that anyone is saved then, when others also are completely devoted just like the ones who are now deemed never saved? If one is devoted to God’s word, to say they were never saved doesn’t give any assurance to all the ones who are also devoted to God’s word, because they’d also be questioning whether they are truly saved as well. They’d be doubting their own salvation. People who are now said to be never truly saved also believed and also did the same things as the others did who are said to be saved, so what gives anyone any assurance to anyone? That’s the problem with saying someone was never saved.

Unless I knew with absolute certainty that someone was never saved according to God’s word, I’d never say someone was never saved to begin with.

 

[Believer08]

What's that got to do with anything, or more specifically, anything I said? Neither the
minister I knew nor Gretta believed they were saved. They did not even believe in God!

That’s not what I’m taking about. I’m talking about those who do believe in God.

 

[Believer08]

What's that got to do with anything, or more specifically, anything I said? Neither the
minister I knew nor Gretta believed they were saved. They did not even believe in God!

We seem to be talking about two different types of individuals here. Those who do believe and those who do not. If someone is a minister at a church, I would submit that everyone there considered them saved, but now they are never saved if they depart, and that proves my point about OSAS. No one knows who is saved in that belief. Not even a minister.

 

[Magenta]

That’s not what I’m taking about. I’m talking about those who do believe in God.

Post number 184 you said
Obviously people thought and believed they were (saved), otherwise... they’d never been an elder or preacher.

I directly addressed what you said.

 

[Believer08]

Post number 184 you said
Obviously people thought and believed they were (saved), otherwise... they’d never been an elder or preacher.

I directly addressed what you said.

You brought up two people who you said didn’t believe in God. I’m talking about people who do believe, but even if you did address my point, you proved how there is no assurance with OSAS. Thanks.

 

[Magenta]

You brought up two people who you said didn’t believe in God. I’m talking about people who do believe, but even if you did address my point, you proved how there is no assurance with OSAS. Thanks.

Please try harder to be honest. You claimed people thought and believed they were saved if
they were preachers or elders and I gave you more than one example where that is not true.

 

[Believer08]

Please try harder to be honest. You claimed people thought and believed they were saved if
they were preachers or elders and I gave you more than one example where that is not true.

Then either you misunderstood me or I didn’t explain myself clearly. What I meant was the people who listened to the preachers sermons and who considered others to be elders in their respective churches would all have believed and considered their ministers and elders to be saved. Why would they do that for if for no other reason they truly believed they were? But then the moment they depart from what they believe, the very same people who once considered their ministers, elders, etc etc Christian would never be a Christian. That’s the point I’m making. When one begins saying “they were never truly saved”, no one knows who is saved in OSAS.

 

[GWH]

Innocence has nothing to do with the kingdom of God. Those in the kingdom of God are not innocent; they are forgiven. The aspect of children that correlates to the kingdom is trust/faith.

Those who are forgiven are viewed as sharing the innocence/righteousness of Christ by God. "Viewed" is called "credited" in RM 4:3-11.
Some theologians call it "imputed".

 

[Cameron143]

Those who are forgiven are viewed as sharing the innocence/righteousness of Christ by God. "Viewed" is called "credited" in RM 4:3-11.
Some theologians call it "imputed".

Again you conflate terminology. Innocence is not righteousness. Trust/faith is what is in view. I already explained why.

 

[Lamar]

Your grass is 4" tall and it needs to be mowed. If (AND IT IS)your grass is more than 3" tall you need to mow it.

Do you apply to the "if?"

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

The height of grass is objective.
The claim of your name being in the Book of Life is subjective.

Did this really have to be spelled out to you?

 

[Lamar]

Again you conflate terminology. Innocence is not righteousness. Trust/faith is what is in view. I already explained why.

"Again you conflate terminology."???

If innocence is not righteousness, then trust is not faith.

I suspect you are purposely nit-picking.

 

[Cameron143]

"Again you conflate terminology."???

If innocence is not righteousness, then trust is not faith.

I suspect you are purposely nit-picking.

Not at all. I'm explaining what the passage actually means.
Children are not innocent in relation to sin. In other words, they are guilty of sin. The innocence being spoken of, therefore, must be the innocence of ignorance.
What is true of children is that they implicitly trust those in positions of authority.
Such is the kingdom of God. Kingdom dwellers implicitly trust God. Faith is the currency of the kingdom...without faith it is impossible to please God.
This is the message of the passage.

 

[Believer08]

Consider a man who was raised in a church who teaches once saved always saved, attended services regularly as an adult, regularly professed his trust in Christ, and made an effort to lead a decent, godly life. Such a man is, without hesitation, what every person who believes in Christ would label a Christian. But if he flees with someone’s wife, then all of the evidence is disregarded. Not only is he not faithful now, but he was never faithful in the first place, despite the fact that in the past he did everything that current devoted believers of OSAS will cite as proof of their own conversion!

With that line of thought, how would every other self professed Christian not be considered never saved as well? Is it because they didn’t depart?

If they do depart, then the life they lived before they ever departed (a faithful Christian) would have been one of being never saved. That is a disturbing thought, because that would have every single person at this very moment to have never been saved before they even do depart. The reason why is because all of the others who are considered saved would point to the same evidence of their life to know they are saved, which is the same evidence that they would have pointed to in the past to those who are now considered never saved!!

In total: At this very moment if anyone said so and so were saved…but then they fall away…they were never saved. If they were never saved, then the life they were living (from the beginning of their conversion up until they departed) would be of one that was never saved. This is disturbing.

The ugly reality behind the supposed comfort of the doctrine of once saved always is It's supposed to provide believers with the assurance of salvation, but logically, it does the opposite. Those who live like faithful Christians, who sincerely (to every appearance) describe themselves as being children of God, can still fall away and thereby prove that they were never regenerated/saved at all. To be true and honest with their belief, no person who believes in OSAS would categorize anyone to be saved, as such an individual will prove their salvation to be genuine by dying to the faith.

 

[Believer08]

If one was never a brother or sister fi begin with, then I guess we ought not to bother praying for a brother or sister to be restored or make any effort to help them when they were never a brother or sister to be restored…That’s another problem of the never saved to begin with argument. It can relieve them of their Christian duty of trying to bring an erring Christian back.

 

[Believer08]

 

[Magenta]

John 17:2-3~ You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent.

 

[PennEd]

Consider a man who was raised in a church who teaches once saved always saved, attended services regularly as an adult, regularly professed his trust in Christ, and made an effort to lead a decent, godly life. Such a man is, without hesitation, what every person who believes in Christ would label a Christian. But if he flees with someone’s wife, then all of the evidence is disregarded. Not only is he not faithful now, but he was never faithful in the first place, despite the fact that in the past he did everything that current devoted believers of OSAS will cite as proof of their own conversion!

With that line of thought, how would every other self professed Christian not be considered never saved as well? Is it because they didn’t depart?

If they do depart, then the life they lived before they ever departed (a faithful Christian) would have been one of being never saved. That is a disturbing thought, because that would have every single person at this very moment to have never been saved before they even do depart. The reason why is because all of the others who are considered saved would point to the same evidence of their life to know they are saved, which is the same evidence that they would have pointed to in the past to those who are now considered never saved!!

In total: At this very moment if anyone said so and so were saved…but then they fall away…they were never saved. If they were never saved, then the life they were living (from the beginning of their conversion up until they departed) would be of one that was never saved. This is disturbing.

The ugly reality behind the supposed comfort of the doctrine of once saved always is It's supposed to provide believers with the assurance of salvation, but logically, it does the opposite. Those who live like faithful Christians, who sincerely (to every appearance) describe themselves as being children of God, can still fall away and thereby prove that they were never regenerated/saved at all. To be true and honest with their belief, no person who believes in OSAS would categorize anyone to be saved, as such an individual will prove their salvation to be genuine by dying to the faith.

I agree with you.

YOU, and others that believe you can lose your salvation, are absolutely right.

YOU can!

But those of us that KNOW Jesus, and have been born again to new life as a child of the Living God, can’t!!

Praise your Holy Name Father ABBA!

We know, that although You may discipline us when we sin, and do wrong, like every good father does, You will NEVER cast your precious kids into hell.

Please forgive those that that claim You would.

 

[Believer08]

Thanks everyone for commenting. Have a great rest of your week.