The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Believer08]

@Kroogz, first, I do not ascribe to the belief of telling a Christian they are never saved. People who believe in OSAS do that. They tell that to people all the time. Since you do not believe in that argument, then perhaps we can reach some common ground. They use 1 John 2:19 and Matthew 7:23 to say a Christian who falls away were never saved. Do you agree with their view?

 

[Kroogz]

I think he is arguing against calvinism. like so many do,. and try to lump us all under that doctrine

lordship salvation is calvinism.

Rather than focusing on the inability to choose Christ, they focus on "P" in tulip. Perseverance.

If one doesn't persevere then one wasn't really saved. Armins say the SAME thing....Just in different words.

Calvinism and Armins have more in common than they know.

 

[Kroogz]

@Kroogz, first, I do not ascribe to the belief of telling a Christian they are never saved. People who believe in OSAS do that. They tell that to people all the time. Since you do not believe in that argument, then perhaps we can reach some common ground. They use 1 John 2:19 and Matthew 7:23 to say a Christian who falls away were never saved. Do you agree with their view?

Absolutely not.

 

[Musicmaster]

Do you have examples you might share to provide better understanding for what you mean to say there?

Here's a good start:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The importance of grace is established:

Ephesians 2:5, 8
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved; ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So, we see here that works save nobody, nor are we justified by works:

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

So, when we think about works, they are the efforts we put forth as the means to try and impress the Lord, or to earn His favor, which cannot be done given that we have His unmerited favor, otherwise known as "grace," by which we are saved through faith.

Some will go to James and demand that what he said applies to us also (thus failing to rightly divide the word of truth), but they also fail to consider the very first verse as to whom James was addressing, and WHEN he was addressing that to Israel.

This works also in the realm of trying to "retain" one's salvation, which is also works. How do we know that?

Matthew 10:22, 24:13
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Jesus spoke that message to Israel, who were under the Kingdom Gospel, not the Gospel of Grace...not yet. They were not sealed by Holy Spirit, not like we are who are under the Gospel of Grace.

So, one who thinks they are retaining their salvation by their efforts of endurance, they are placing themselves under "another gospel", and when they preach that other gospel, they are accursed.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The Kingdom Gospel was true for those who were under that gospel. So, rightly dividing the word of truth isn't a matter of dividing truth from falsehood, but truth from truth. That's why there's such horrid confusion in so many professing believer's testimony and gospel message when mixing truths that were not written TO us with Paul's truth that WAS written TO us.

I also posted verses that speak to the fact that when we believe in the saving work of Christ on the cross and in His resurrection, we are sealed by Holy Spirit. That seal is absolute, and for those with pathetic hermeneutics trying to make out the Lord as being so weak that He can't hold on to those who are truly His, that's the work of the devil in the arena of churchianity and its false teachings.

Does that help?

Observe the words in post #256. That's a classic example of tuck tail and run when confronted with big, bad truths that cannot be beaten by emotional arguments and pathetically puny hermeneutics. Generally speaking, I hope others here bolster their beliefs with something of far greater substance than that worthless series of posts.

MM

 

[Believer08]

Absolutely not.

Ok. What is your understanding of those two passages, please.

 

[aChristian2]

How comforting is that?

I wonder if these people would apply that same line of reasoning with themselves? Or are they the exception to it? I wonder how consistent they would be? If they themselves depart, would they say they were never saved?


your topic is most interesting, and as we all come to the question from our angle and view point, we somewhat ( I digress, & speak as a fool) prove your point ( somewhat unbeknownst to us, even the poster, as well as this comment (myself)

I understand scripture to have two definitions a fleshly understanding & a Spiritual Application (understanding) one can have intellect, and wisdom close to Solomon yet without spiritual education how can we understand.

for instance in The book of Revelation 2:24-28, you have not known the depths of satan... I suggest (his power, his influence over the doctrine we Christians proclaim) ( in our understanding) we assume (may assume) he does not have the Bible Colleges, we assume he does not have the main stream preachers compromised.... even ourselves....yet he was on the attack after Pauls tours, and Paul said ravenous wolfs would enter( yet we think the wolves have dispersed and reside outside the churches ( I digress and somewhat embellish to propose a point)

Dan Rather said, Once the herd starts moving in one direction, it's very hard to turn it, even slightly....

I have seen the devil have Christians blasphemy... GOD ALMIGHTY in the middle of a prayer meeting, elders and pastors unaware..... most serious!.... I have heard many a preacher preach about Bible verses they simply do not understand and none the wiser, other pastor or the audience it seemed.

the road is narrow and there be few there that be on it

death to self, LED by GOD's HOLY SPIRIT, no idols before JESUS, JESUS must be in his Rightful Position, KING of all kings, LORD of all lords... the flesh cannot put him there it is impossible... once again death to self....

We Receive GODS HOLY SPIRIT to end the devils rule over us ( our exit from Egypt) ( the world system, lusts of the eyes, desires of the flesh))

I would proclaim many of us do not understand what this truly means and we have turned the Grace of GOD into lasciviousness...

it is by Grace ye are saved and not of works.... in all I understand the accuser tries to take claim of us,, saying bruce serves me, bruce promotes my kingdom, bruce lays his head on my bosom, bruce lays his treasures and my feet... and too often he is right.....

yet who has ears to hear, and who has eyes to see...

fruits of the Spirit, Love (faith works by Love, joy, peace, gentleness, FAITH, kindness, temperance (controls, mortifying the deeds of the flesh) our hearts and minds must be filled with(Led) by.....

Romans 8: 13 them that mortify the deeds of the flesh by GODS's HOLY SPIRIT these are the children of GOD....Ephesian 5 idolaters, ( anything you love more than GOD) these people shall not inherit the Kingdom of GOD...idolatry is most serious and I gather most of us can not see it for what it is,

they shall not inherit the Kingdom of GOD, do not let people use vain words with you... ( as in other places he tells us, as I have told you before...)

many preachers and Christians use vain words...

but again I digress I cannot read anyones heart, yet I look for the fruit of our words, and I see many an intelligent Christian here... and I believe GOD has shown me there be many a Christian here..... yet my words stand

I might suggest some other verses... although many I would like to introduce..

them that are worthy shall inherit the Kingdom of GOD, another When JESUS returns will he find faith on the earth....now I am not worthy and I have often heard people say well the church will be gone.... vain words in my estimation.....

in peace & love... many are called few are Chosen, I do not suggest none of us our Christians, I suggest we are, yet Chosen the race (war) continues..when I suggest the devil has us compromised, sometimes in small ways the keep the flesh strong.... not in your over all walk,, for if you love your neighbour as yourself, you do well,, for the Bible tells me so

 

[Kroogz]

Ok. What is your understanding of those two passages, please.

John was a doctrinal teacher. Not many believers would stay in a doctrinal church. Those who want their ears tickled will leave.
Nothing about loss of salvation. You and I would obviously not go to the same church......Doesn't mean we are not saved.

Mat7:23 is about someone who was NEVER saved. "On that day" is judgement day. The great white throne judgement. Every knee will bow. Everyone will know ON THAT DAY that Jesus Is Lord.

Believers are evaluated at the Bema seat of Christ.

 

[Believer08]

John was a doctrinal teacher. Not many believers would stay in a doctrinal church. Those who want their ears tickled will leave.
Nothing about loss of salvation. You and I would obviously not go to the same church......Doesn't mean we are not saved.

Mat7:23 is about someone who was NEVER saved. "On that day" is judgement day. The great white throne judgement. Every knee will bow. Everyone will know ON THAT DAY that Jesus Is Lord.

Believers are evaluated at the Bema seat of Christ.

Thanks for your response.

 

[bluejean_bible]

Here's a good start:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The importance of grace is established:

Ephesians 2:5, 8
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved; ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So, we see here that works save nobody, nor are we justified by works:

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

So, when we think about works, they are the efforts we put forth as the means to try and impress the Lord, or to earn His favor, which cannot be done given that we have His unmerited favor, otherwise known as "grace," by which we are saved through faith.

Some will go to James and demand that what he said applies to us also (thus failing to rightly divide the word of truth), but they also fail to consider the very first verse as to whom James was addressing, and WHEN he was addressing that to Israel.

This works also in the realm of trying to "retain" one's salvation, which is also works. How do we know that?

Matthew 10:22, 24:13
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Jesus spoke that message to Israel, who were under the Kingdom Gospel, not the Gospel of Grace...not yet. They were not sealed by Holy Spirit, not like we are who are under the Gospel of Grace.

So, one who thinks they are retaining their salvation by their efforts of endurance, they are placing themselves under "another gospel", and when they preach that other gospel, they are accursed.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The Kingdom Gospel was true for those who were under that gospel. So, rightly dividing the word of truth isn't a matter of dividing truth from falsehood, but truth from truth. That's why there's such horrid confusion in so many professing believer's testimony and gospel message when mixing truths that were not written TO us with Paul's truth that WAS written TO us.

I also posted verses that speak to the fact that when we believe in the saving work of Christ on the cross and in His resurrection, we are sealed by Holy Spirit. That seal is absolute, and for those with pathetic hermeneutics trying to make out the Lord as being so weak that He can't hold on to those who are truly His, that's the work of the devil in the arena of churchianity and its false teachings.

Does that help?

Observe the words in post #256. That's a classic example of tuck tail and run when confronted with big, bad truths that cannot be beaten by emotional arguments and pathetically puny hermeneutics. Generally speaking, I hope others here bolster their beliefs with something of far greater substance than that worthless series of posts.

MM

Thank you for that detailed explanation.

 

[Believer08]

Thanks for your response.

John was a doctrinal teacher. Not many believers would stay in a doctrinal church. Those who want their ears tickled will leave.
Nothing about loss of salvation. You and I would obviously not go to the same church......Doesn't mean we are not saved.

Mat7:23 is about someone who was NEVER saved. "On that day" is judgement day. The great white throne judgement. Every knee will bow. Everyone will know ON THAT DAY that Jesus Is Lord.

Believers are evaluated at the Bema seat of Christ.

I think the confusion that people have is they classify people who were once saved as never saved, instead of classifying the ones who were never saved as those who were never Christian.

 

[Kroogz]

I think the confusion that people have is they classify people who were once saved as never saved, instead of classifying the ones who were never saved as those who were never Christian.

It really does a disservice to other believers to say " not really saved." Many of us take many years to have the light bulb come on to the fact of our eternal security in Christ.

 

[Believer08]

It really does a disservice to other believers to say " not really saved." Many of us take many years to have the light bulb come on to the fact of our eternal security in Christ.

I agree.

 

[TrustandObey]

Interesting that you respond this way and don't quote the entire post.

The original poster I responded to conflated terms that didn't consider the context of the passage. The second poster didn't follow the discussion and responded without the context of the particular passage. And you respond by pulling out a statement of my response to the second poster without its context, and give correction for a spiritual problem you believe exists in me, albeit, you do so void of love.

Perhaps, read back through the discussion and follow the whole argument, and quote entire posts so as not to skew truth or intention.

There is nothing in the context that supports your nit-picking. Your defense is weak so your quibbling is but a smoke screen.

Just as your "you do so void of love" comment is a sign of your lack of any real argument.

We do not know each others hearts. So please keep your emotions out of the discussion.

 

[Believer08]

There is nothing in the context that supports your nit-picking. Your defense is weak so your quibbling is but a smoke screen.

Just as your "you do so void of love" comment is a sign of your lack of any real argument.

We do not know each others hearts. So please keep your emotions out of the discussion.

That is what happens when people are involved in a belief that cannot be backed with scripture. They argue from emotions—which is the argument of saying someone who was a Christian was never saved. It’s one based on emotion. Not truth.

 

[TrustandObey]

Some believe in what you termed, "...impossibility of apostacy..."? Have you met someone who believes that?

What I question is the works-based salvation that is the logical conclusion to the idea that anyone can lose their salvation. In other words, if we have to DO something to retain our salvation, keeping it from being lost, then it's works-based, which is a false doctrine from the very outset.

MM

I most certainly have met people who without a doubt believe that apostasy cannot and does not exist.

By the very nature of their argument, they cannot accept the notion that someone who has sincerely
pledged faith in God can ever renounce their pledge. Because of their circular reasoning they have no other choice.
They believe that the word itself has not meaning in Christianity.

Now I ask you, have you ever met someone who believes that they are earning their salvation.
Working out their salvation in fear and trembling yes but earning...never.

 

[TrustandObey]

That is what happens when people are involved in a belief that cannot be backed with scripture. They argue from emotions—which is the argument of saying someone who was a Christian was never saved. It’s one based on emotion. Not truth.

OSAS has always been based on emotions.

They have no desire to concern themselves with self-examining themselves.
They have no desire to be watchful or keeping their lamps full.

After all, the King would never revoke the forgiveness of our debts...would He? (Matthew 18:21-35)

In the end OSAS is a drug, a drug that helps some to sleep better at night.

 

[aChristian2]

OSAS has always been based on emotions.

They have no desire to concern themselves with self-examining themselves.
They have no desire to be watchful or keeping their lamps full.

After all, the King would never revoke the forgiveness of our debts...would He? (Matthew 18:21-35)

In the end OSAS is a drug, a drug that helps some to sleep better at night.

the flesh is against us, to deceive us.... trust & obey

 

[TrustandObey]

It really does a disservice to other believers to say " not really saved." Many of us take many years to have the light bulb come on to the fact of our eternal security in Christ.

Your subjective notion that you have "eternal security " holds no weight in this discussion.

If it took "many years" for your light bulb to come on maybe you should check the connection.

 

[aChristian2]

Your subjective notion that you have "eternal security " holds no weight in this discussion.

If it took "many years" for your light bulb to come on maybe you should check the connection.

brother I speak as a fool, and Trust & Obey is what I think as well, we must remember to love 1st, ( not saying your not) just a reminder... we can not see what we cannot see, plant the seed, pray for them.. all must be done in love or we miss the point,,, we can not force faith upon any.... in love I speak to you brother

Dale Moody said something like.. the Eternal Salvation is Secure, not ones possession of it

if I offended you, go easy on me, I too preach a LORD ship salvation......haha. lots of laughs

 

[Believer08]

OSAS has always been based on emotions.

They have no desire to concern themselves with self-examining themselves.
They have no desire to be watchful or keeping their lamps full.

After all, the King would never revoke the forgiveness of our debts...would He? (Matthew 18:21-35)

In the end OSAS is a drug, a drug that helps some to sleep better at night.

I believe in the eternal security of the believer, but not OSAS, as I do believe it’s entirely possible for a Christian to live in such a way to be eternally lost. I find the ones who say someone is never saved to begin with to be a harsh statement. I wonder how they’d like if they applied their own argument to themselves?

And it is a conversation that goes in circles, as you said earlier. One will be told and taught they will always be saved, and you can never do anything to lose it, but if you end up in sin then you were never saved and you never had it to lose it. And around and around we go…it’s like a merry go round at a fair. If he has faith, he is saved…if he falls away, he was never saved to begin with…and so on and so on. If they apply their same argument to themselves, all who believe in OSAS are never saved…