The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[TrustandObey]

Have I ever met people who think they must earn their salvation? Many times over. the sad part is. if you ask them. Non of them believe they are trying to earn it.

"Actually the issue here is people assume they know what others believe and try to force their thinking on them. when what they really believe is nothing like what they are being accused of." (Your Post# 286)

Can you not see the hypocrisy between these two statements?

You are doing the same thing that you are accusing believer08 of doing.

 

[HeIsHere]

Once again

The apostle john saidf people who were walking in the church, who were part of us. And departed from us, and now have done the very thing you are talking about (renounced their faith, they now are against christ, or an antichrist) was never of us PERIOD

John also said if they were truly a part of us (if they were truly saved) they never would have departed (renounced their faith or become an antichrist)

Have I ever met people who think they must earn their salvation? Many times over. the sad part is. if you ask them. Non of them believe they are trying to earn it.

I would agree, much like Calvinism they never want to admit the final conclusion of their doctrine >>>> that they are earning/maintaining/securing their salvation by their own effort.

This nullifies the work of the cross, no way around it, the sin issue was dealt with 2000+ years ago by God Himself.

 

[GWH]

The word of God says they were never of us.

so who is arguing against the word?

Hey, you want to be under law and not under grace feel free? But don't attack those of us who trust in God and have come to the end of ourselves. and refuse to trust self.

You taking a bunch of scripture out of context does not make you right.

I included 1 John 2:19 in that bunch, suggesting that when v.19 is synthesized or harmonized with verse 24 it must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”, and your saying that I am not right does not make you right, so please explain why my interpretation is wrong in context of whatever bunch of Scripture you have in mind. Thanks.

Not sure why what I posted prompted you to accuse me of wanting to be under the law and of attacking anyone,
so please explain that, too. Thanks again.

 

[GWH]

Description does not equate to prescription.

Those are descriptive passages of what a Child of God will do.

They are not a presciption for Salvation.

Are you born again?

Yes, description is not prescription, and no, those passages are not description but rather prescriptions for perseverance.

Yes, I am born again. Are you? Do you want to remain reborn?

 

[Cameron143]

There is nothing in the context that supports your nit-picking. Your defense is weak so your quibbling is but a smoke screen.

Just as your "you do so void of love" comment is a sign of your lack of any real argument.

We do not know each others hearts. So please keep your emotions out of the discussion.

Wow...you assign intention to my motives, and then say leave out emotions. You lack discernment of others as well as self.
As far as my argument, the original poster I was discussing with ended up agreeing with my position. The other poster who chimed in without reading the entire dialogue hasn't resurfaced. So it's just you who has yet to make an argument from scripture babbling on.
If you have an argument from scripture, let's hear it.

 

[Musicmaster]

@Musicmaster, sorry, but your responses do not refute my position or prove OSAS. You are also set on ignore. Good day.

When even scripture doesn't convince you, nothing else will and nobody else will except whatever false teaching authority has taught you that works-based salvation is real and that one cannot have a will to seek the Lord for salvation. You have all the freedom in the world to believe whatever you want, but scripture says what it says, and cannot be altered by the false teachers out there who are tools of Satan for falsehoods.

MM

 

[PennEd]

Yes, I am born again. Are you? Do you want to remain reborn?

So you are a born again Child of the God of all things.

You are His kid. He is your Daddy (Abba)

And you're telling me that your Daddy is going to cast you into eternal fire because you did, or didn't do a specific thing?

Your Father loves you, and He will discipline you when you do wrong. He will even let you wallow in the mud and get lost out there. BUT, He will NEVER stop drawing you back to Him, and looking for you UNTIL HE FINDS YOU! Do you think God is incapable of finding His kids?

When you stand at the judgement Seat of Christ you may even lose eternal rewards and position and possibly be counted amongst the least in Heaven.

But you WILL be there.

So fear not friend.

 

[Musicmaster]

lordship salvation is calvinism.

Rather than focusing on the inability to choose Christ, they focus on "P" in tulip. Perseverance.

If one doesn't persevere then one wasn't really saved. Armins say the SAME thing....Just in different words.

Calvinism and Armins have more in common than they know.

Arminius was indeed a Calvinist.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

View attachment 273434
I most certainly have met people who without a doubt believe that apostasy cannot and does not exist.

I'm not sure how this comment applies here. I never said that a saved individual cannot apostatize. Can you quote me having said such a thing?

By the very nature of their argument, they cannot accept the notion that someone who has sincerely
pledged faith in God can ever renounce their pledge.

Of course they can. I never said otherwise, so why bring that up here?

Because of their circular reasoning they have no other choice.
They believe that the word itself has not meaning in Christianity.

Perhaps that's true. However, I never broached that topic, so am still confused as to how that applies to my afore-mentioned comments.

Now I ask you, have you ever met someone who believes that they are earning their salvation.

Absolutely. On a more simplistic level, those who believe one must be water baptized for remission of sins, that is works-based. Roman Catholicism is absolutely immersed into the works-based salvation system of earning their salvation.

Where have you been? Do you not know about the world of religion around you? Have you not studied those other religions and their teachings that clearly are works-based earning of salvation? I'm surprised that you might say you have never met any of them.

Perhaps you are young and inexperienced. If that's the case, then you have much to learn about how prolific and broad the earned-salvation base really is out there. Some so-called "Christian denominations," and even independent organizations that claim they are not a denomination, MANY teach the necessity for water baptism for salvation.

Working out their salvation in fear and trembling yes but earning...never.

The key word for that verse is sanctification, which remains greatly misunderstood by many professing believers. Churchianity does little to engage that need for growth through their structural operandi and practices in teaching content and methodology.

Hope that answers your questions and clarifies my position in what scripture says to us.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Once again

The apostle john saidf people who were walking in the church, who were part of us. And departed from us, and now have done the very thing you are talking about (renounced their faith, they now are against christ, or an antichrist) was never of us PERIOD

John also said if they were truly a part of us (if they were truly saved) they never would have departed (renounced their faith or become an antichrist)

Have I ever met people who think they must earn their salvation? Many times over. the sad part is. if you ask them. Non of them believe they are trying to earn it.

Be careful with that. When you start talking about the transformative power of Holy Spirit within the true believer, and that there are therefore none who walk away from their faith, that pulls the rug out from under the "loss of salvation" bandwagoneers. They don't like having nothing under their feet for their harangues. They like to think the Lord is weak and powerless to hold on to those who have come to Him by way of their free will, He who along is the Source of salvation.

MM

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

"Actually the issue here is people assume they know what others believe and try to force their thinking on them. when what they really believe is nothing like what they are being accused of." (Your Post# 286)

Can you not see the hypocrisy between these two statements?

You are doing the same thing that you are accusing believer08 of doing.

actually no it is not the same

when someone says they can lose salvation.

it is not the same as that same someone telling another person that they believe a person that was saved at one time and fell away was never saved.

If you can lose something because you failed to do something, You failed to live up to some standard. You did something (a particular sin or a number of sin) or any reason,

You are trying to work your way to heaven.

If A person has been given Gods promise they will never perish, and they will live forever based on their faith in him. Then that person will never perish.

if they perish. then God lied.

its not rocket science.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I included 1 John 2:19 in that bunch, suggesting that when v.19 is synthesized or harmonized with verse 24 it must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”, and your saying that I am not right does not make you right, so please explain why my interpretation is wrong in context of whatever bunch of Scripture you have in mind. Thanks.

You state they repudiate their faith.

John said in effect. they never had faith.

so you tell me where the issue lies.

They were never of us. period.. Why is it words like never and eternal do not mean what they say according to many people?

Not sure why what I posted prompted you to accuse me of wanting to be under the law and of attacking anyone,
so please explain that, too. Thanks again.

try reading the verses you posted. Verses used to support that salvation can be lost. if we do not live up to Gods standard etc etc.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes, description is not prescription, and no, those passages are not description but rather prescriptions for perseverance.

Yes, I am born again. Are you? Do you want to remain reborn?

but we can not persevere to the end and be saved eternally.

That would require sinless perfection. But even more than this, it requires sinless perfection since birth

my bible says all have sinned and fall short.

its to late to endure.. you are already short

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Be careful with that. When you start talking about the transformative power of Holy Spirit within the true believer, and that there are therefore none who walk away from their faith, that pulls the rug out from under the "loss of salvation" bandwagoneers. They don't like having nothing under their feet for their harangues. They like to think the Lord is weak and powerless to hold on to those who have come to Him by way of their free will, He who along is the Source of salvation.

MM

they deny the power of God and his trustworthyness.

Thinking someone born of God would freely chose to walk away.. I mean wow..

 

[Believer08]

Oh consistency, thou art a jewel…

 

[Lamar]

So you are a born again Child of the God of all things.

You are His kid. He is your Daddy (Abba)

And you're telling me that your Daddy is going to cast you into eternal fire because you did, or didn't do a specific thing?

Your Father loves you, and He will discipline you when you do wrong. He will even let you wallow in the mud and get lost out there. BUT, He will NEVER stop drawing you back to Him, and looking for you UNTIL HE FINDS YOU! Do you think God is incapable of finding His kids?

When you stand at the judgement Seat of Christ you may even lose eternal rewards and position and possibly be counted amongst the least in Heaven.

But you WILL be there.

So fear not friend.

The Daddy (Abba) said that his son was lost, he said he was dead. (The Parable of the Lost Son)

The king revoked (took back) the forgiven debt of his servant. (Parable of the Unforgiving Servant)

The son/servant were not "disciplined" they were in a condemned state.

 

[Believer08]

The Daddy (Abba) said that his son was lost, he said he was dead. (The Parable of the Lost Son)

The king revoked (took back) the forgiven debt of his servant. (Parable of the Unforgiving Servant)

The son/servant were not "disciplined" they were in a condemned state.

OSASER’s explain away passages. It’s ridiculous how dishonest they are with them.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The Daddy (Abba) said that his son was lost, he said he was dead. (The Parable of the Lost Son)

The king revoked (took back) the forgiven debt of his servant. (Parable of the Unforgiving Servant)

The son/servant were not "disciplined" they were in a condemned state.

thank Goodness the son still had his fathers blood. He never stopped being the son.

But hey, if you think you can unbirth yourself and remove your fathers DNA from your body,. I guess feel free

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

OSASER’s explain away passages. It’s ridiculous how dishonest they are with them.

nah, we just interpret them in light with the rest of scripture.

yes the son was dead - he did not have access to the blessings the father could give him.. He was taken to his knees. and he returned.

But he never stopped being the son.

 

[Musicmaster]

they deny the power of God and his trustworthyness.

Thinking someone born of God would freely chose to walk away.. I mean wow..

Good points. The LoS (loss of salvation) gang creates all manner of boogeymen as backing to their straw men arguments in favor of the warped theology behind Holy Spirit allegedly losing hold upon those sealed, their arguments are self-defeating when placed parallel with what scripture says and what it does not say, thus betraying their habit of injecting things that aren't there.

MM