Understanding God’s election

[rogerg]

What does the Gospel have the power to do in your view? Is it God's intervention you speak of? Is it referred to as light and as having power?

[2Co 2:15-17 KJV]
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

My belief is that it is only by God's direct intervention/indwelling with/within someone alone is salvation, which salvation, is described by the Gospel; it also informs of condemnation: to those saved/born again it is light; to those not, it is darkness, condemnation and death - this also is described by the Gospel.

We likely have different views of what you mean by "completely corrupted" or "spiritual death" to some.

Completely corrupted mind means that an unsaved, unrenewed mind is an unescapable prison capable only of facilitating and encouraging acts of condemnation, judgement and death.
A completely corrupted mind, I believe, is a way that spiritual death manifests within someone, but it is not synonymous with spiritual death. Receiving spiritual life must precede the renewing of the mind.
I might have missed it, but did you answer my question as to whether you believe Christ is the Savior?

 

[PaulThomson]

I don't have the mental energy to get into a deep debate about anything, including what I'm having for lunch.
I will say however that I have heard people try to reverse the verse to say because they believed, they became appointed to eternal life,
but I don't think that is logically possible because for it to mean that, it would have had to have an entirely different phrasing, for example: ".... and as many as believed were ordained to eternal life", not how it was phrased.

What exactly does the context around Acts 13:48 imply it was that the Gentiles actually believed and rejoiced over. Compare this with John 20:8-9. What was it that the context implies John actually believed?

 

[rogerg]

What exactly does the context around Acts 13:48 imply it was that the Gentiles actually believed and rejoiced over. Compare this with John 20:8-9. What was it that the context implies John actually believed?

You mean, this?

[Jhn 20:8-9 KJV]
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

to this?

[Act 13:47-49 KJV]
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

 

[PaulThomson]

You mean, this?

[Jhn 20:8-9 KJV]
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

to this?

[Act 13:47-49 KJV]
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

Those are the texts I referenced.

[Jhn 20:8-9 KJV]
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

What did John believe?

[Act 13:47-49 KJV]
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed [this].
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

What did the Gentiles believe?

 

[rogerg]

Those are the texts I referenced.

[Jhn 20:8-9 KJV]
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

What did John believe?

[Act 13:47-49 KJV]
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed [this].
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

What did the Gentiles believe?

I haven't compared those verses before, but they seem to be referring the same thing just focusing upon different points in time and edification. They both came to believe that Christ is the Savior
If you have a particular point you're driving at, just state it.

 

[studier]

[2Co 2:15-17 KJV]
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

What's your point here in response to my questions about the light of the Gospel - the Gospel's power to save?

My belief is that it is only by God's direct intervention/indwelling with/within someone alone is salvation, which salvation, is described by the Gospel; it also informs of condemnation: to those saved/born again it is light; to those not, it is darkness, condemnation and death - this also is described by the Gospel.

As I think I've seen before, you think God needs to indwell a person in order for the person to first believe the Gospel, correct?

Completely corrupted mind means that an unsaved, unrenewed mind is an unescapable prison capable only of facilitating and encouraging acts of condemnation, judgement and death.
A completely corrupted mind, I believe, is a way that spiritual death manifests within someone, but it is not synonymous with spiritual death.

Understood. Doesn't sound much different than the concept of spiritual death that you think is not synonymous.

Receiving spiritual life must precede the renewing of the mind.

Kind of ambiguous based upon other things you've said, but on the surface, I would agree as I've said that Rom12:1-2 is a command to Christians = those with spiritual life.

I might have missed it, but did you answer my question as to whether you believe Christ is the Savior?

I guess I missed your question. Yes. And more...

 

[rogerg]

What's your point here in response to my questions about the light of the Gospel - the Gospel's power to save?

Christ is God's power unto salvation. Christ, in essence, is the Gospel.

As I think I've seen before, you think God needs to indwell a person in order for the person to first believe the Gospel, correct?

He needs to indwell a person for them to become saved/born again. From that indwelling, they are given faith, and from that faith, they believe.

Understood. Doesn't sound much different than the concept of spiritual death that you think is not synonymous.

To me it's an A causes B relationship. One is cause, the other its effect.

Kind of ambiguous based upon other things you've said, but on the surface, I would agree as I've said that Rom12:1-2 is a command to Christians = those with spiritual life.

Hmmm. Okay. Doesn't seem ambiguous to me.

I guess I missed your question. Yes. And more...

No problem. But then as Savior, you agree salvation is entirely within/by His hands, to either give or to withhold, and cannot in any way be manifested by, or dependent upon, man's actions, nor by anything related to man's actions, correct? Otherwise, it would be by man not by Christ.

 

[studier]

Christ is God's power unto salvation. Christ, in essence, is the Gospel.

In a way. So, if He is the Gospel, then the Gospel must be powerful - powerful enough to make Himself (as the Light) seen?

He needs to indwell a person for them to become saved/born again. From that indwelling, they are given faith, and from that faith, they believe.

Disagree. This is why you find some to much compatibility with Calvinists (don't like using the tag for several reasons but doing so for convenience)

No problem. But then as Savior, you agree salvation is entirely within/by His hands, to either give or to withhold, and cannot in any way be manifested by, or dependent upon, man's actions, nor by anything related to man's actions, correct? Otherwise, it would be by man not by Christ.

Too much here to unpack. Some yes, some maybe but can't simply agree with you based on some of your other views.

I'm not stuck on other peoples' views or claims of works salvation. I still see Jesus in John6 commanding unbelievers to work to receive His teaching that lasts for eternal life. I also view faith and obedience for simplicity at the moment as 2 sides of the same coin, and I see in enough Scripture the command from God to believe in His Son, and I see in enough Scripture the concepts of believing the Gospel and obeying the Gospel, and I see in Hebrews that Salvation is for those who obey Jesus Christ.

So, my views from Scripture are that people are overly sensitive to what they claim is works salvation and I see men turning to the Lord and repenting and believing and obeying all in the active sense in response to the gift of salvation that God offers in His Gospel to men by grace through faith that is also obedience to His command to believe.

This is currently being discussed on another thread, so I think we can leave this here for now.

I'm watching you and @PaulThomson discuss Acts13:48 which you posted as proof of your views. Hopefully you'll find enough energy to prove it says what you think it does. I'm waiting for some other things to get posted also. @Rufus is either busy elsewhere or researching or writing a book on 2Cor3-4.

 

[rogerg]

In a way. So, if He is the Gospel, then the Gospel must be powerful - powerful enough to make Himself (as the Light) seen?

Only for those that God had intended to see it. But to do so, they must first have been given a new spirit, new heart and renewed mind.
The seeing comes after the fact, not before.

Disagree. This is why you find some to much compatibility with Calvinists (don't like using the tag for several reasons but doing so for convenience)

Okay, obviously, up to you.

Too much here to unpack. Some yes, some maybe but can't simply agree with you based on some of your other views.

Both can't be true at the same time. He either is the Savior, or He is not - no middle ground possible. As far as I have been able to determine from scripture, we are told that Christ is the only one with the title of Savior - not given to anyone else. How then do you reconcile He is the Savior (as you've said He is), and yet, that He's not - that He alone isn't the one who alone graciously gives it, freely, fully, in its fullness, to all who receive it? Otherwise, whether you realize it or not, you're saying you don't believe He is the Savior.

 

[PaulThomson]

I haven't compared those verses before, but they seem to be referring the same thing just focusing upon different points in time and edification. They both came to believe that Christ is the Savior
If you have a particular point you're driving at, just state it.

Why would John be believing Jesus is the Saviour, if He did not believe Jesus had risen from the dead? The context says John believed (something) because he did not yet understand the scriptures that Jesus must rise from the dead. So, what, based on the context, did John believe because he did not yet understand that Jesus must, according to scripture, rise from the dead?
What had he been told? "They have taken the body..." He believed Mary's theory, because he did not yet understand the scripture that Jesus must rise from the dead.

 

[studier]

Only for those that God had intended to see it. But to do so, they must first have been given a new spirit, new heart and renewed mind.
The seeing comes after the fact, not before.

Room for discussion on the first sentence. Already disagreed on the second, so no point in repeating.

Both can't be true at the same time. He either is the Savior, or He is not - no middle ground possible. As far as I have been able to determine from scripture, we are told that Christ is the only one with the title of Savior - not given to anyone else. How then do you reconcile He is the Savior (as you've said He is), and yet, that He's not - that He alone isn't the one who alone graciously gives it, freely, fully, in its fullness, to all who receive it? Otherwise, whether you realize it or not, you're saying you don't believe He is the Savior.

You've misunderstood me. I was clear about Jesus our Savior and about how I view man's receipt of the gift. You'll find some verses that say God (our Father) is also referred to as Savior and that Salvation is from Him and belief in our Father is also part of eternal life.

 

[rogerg]

Why would John be believing Jesus is the Saviour, if He did not believe Jesus had risen from the dead? The context says John believed (something) because he did not yet understand the scriptures that Jesus must rise from the dead. So, what, based on the context, did John believe because he did not yet understand that Jesus must, according to scripture, rise from the dead?
What had he been told? "They have taken the body..." He believed Mary's theory.

John believed Jesus was the Savior because Jesus had told and demonstrated to His Apostles and disciples that He was. John may not yet have fully understood scripture and the final fulfillment of the prophecy regarding Christ, but nevertheless, that didn't mean he didn't realize that Jesus was the Savior sent by the Father. I dunno, sorry, guess I'm still missing your point.

 

[rogerg]

You've misunderstood me. I was clear about Jesus our Savior and about how I view man's receipt of the gift. You'll find some verses that say God (our Father) is also referred to as Savior and that Salvation is from Him and belief in our Father is also part of eternal life.

Yes, Jesus is God. If Jesus is the Savior as we agreed, then all aspects of salvation logically must have been satisfied by Him alone, by which, it comes specifically and individually unto us as a free gift (or not depending), with all else pertaining to salvation, as byproducts of that.

 

[rogerg]

Yes, Jesus is God. If Jesus is the Savior as we agreed, then all aspects of salvation logically must have been satisfied by Him alone, by which, it comes specifically and individually unto us as a free gift (or not depending), with all else pertaining to salvation, as byproducts of that.

PS I left out the most important part - that Christ, being God, was also the Holy Spirit, moving them to a belief in Christ as Savior.
perhaps they, as of then, did not yet have complete intellectual knowledge of everything, but they did, nevertheless, believe, because
true belief originates from the Spirit.

@PaulThomson

 

[studier]

Yes, Jesus is God. If Jesus is the Savior as we agreed, then all aspects of salvation logically must have been satisfied by Him alone, by which, it comes specifically and individually unto us as a free gift (or not depending), with all else pertaining to salvation, as byproducts of that.

Then again, if the Father's Plan of Salvation completed by our Lord and first-born brother contains commands for His born again/from above children to do things, which it does, and He is working in us to both will and work for His good pleasure, then we have no working involvement in our Salvation?

 

[Magenta]

Then again, if the Father's Plan of Salvation completed by our Lord and first-born brother contains commands for His born again/from above children to do things, which it does, and He is working in us to both will and work for His good pleasure, then we have no working involvement in our Salvation?

Philippians 2:13... And John 15:5.

 

[rogerg]

Then again, if the Father's Plan of Salvation completed by our Lord and first-born brother contains commands for His born again/from above children to do things, which it does, and He is working in us to both will and work for His good pleasure, then we have no working involvement in our Salvation?

Correct - just as its recipients and beneficiaries. The salvation transaction so to speak, was entirely between God the Father and Jesus Christ who satisfied its requirements perfectly.

 

[studier]

Correct - just as its recipients and beneficiaries. The salvation transaction so to speak, was entirely between God the Father and Jesus Christ who satisfied its requirements perfectly.

Yet nothing we have to do in our Salvation no matter what we're commanded to do first as unbelievers coming to Faith and then as Christians walking in Spirit.

This discussion would be better on the other thread I mentioned so all for now. Thanks.

Still no energy to work on Acts13:48 anymore than you have with @PaulThomson?

 

[rogerg]

Yet nothing we have to do in our Salvation no matter what we're commanded to do first as unbelievers coming to Faith and then as Christians walking in Spirit.

This discussion would be better on the other thread I mentioned so all for now. Thanks.

Still no energy to work on Acts13:48 anymore than you have with @PaulThomson?

Thank you, and no, that's about it for me as far as adding to 13:48 goes, at least for now, although I'm happy to discuss further
but not sure how much more I can add.

 

[Magenta]

Thank you, and no, that's about it for me as far as adding to 13:48 goes, at least for now, although I'm happy to discuss further
but not sure how much more I can add.

I said it before but it bears repeating, because all these people talk about the power of the gospel being the power of Salvation to them who believe as if it applies to unbelievers when it obviously does NOT... 1 Corinthians 1:18 clarifies Romans 1:16 further by saying the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God... these people put the cart before the horse all the time with these verses. You are absolutely right Roger they are completely blind to the meaning of these verses when they speak of them and to their own folly in how they interpret them... Proving once again that they ascribe to the natural man qualities and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man.