The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

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Apr 22, 2013
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Are you born again?
(How so?)
Yes.
When I believed The Gospel unto Salvation I became born again. Birth is an event, not a lifelong process.
Do you want to remain reborn?
(How such?)
That’s a “when did you stop beating your wife” type question.

If you’re born once, you die twice.

If you’re born twice, you die once.

I trust Jesus to keep me saved.
If I have to trust myself, I’m certain I’d fail.
 
Dec 18, 2021
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He did. John6:27.
You need to read on, For the people asked Jesus after Jesus made that comment, what work they had to do. and jesus answered

John 6: 28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.

Our faith in Christ is the work of God. He draws us, He teaches us, He brings us to repentance. We can take no glory or credit for saving ourselves because we did not do any work of merit.

Ask the ones who didn't look at the serpent on a pole if they didn't have to do anything but were still healed. By faith some did something as they were told to do.
As them what? Did they make the golden serpent? Did they hang the serpent on the pole? did they raise it up so everyone could see it?

God did all the work and offered it to them for healing. God just asked them to trust him.

What did Jesus say? He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already.

The ones who did not look were already condemned, Yet grace was offered to them, They rejected him and his offer of grace. Its no different than those who reject the offer of grace today and refuse to look to the cross.

you work to merit a reward or a wage.. Salvation is not something we can merit. it is a gift. paid for in full by the giver, As jesus said, "it is finished" in the Greek literally "paid in full" "Tetelesti"

Obediently accomplish the Salvation we were given by working in union with God to do so. Paraphrased, this is what the language says.
sorry bro, we do no cooperate with God. that is a catholic ploy.

A gift giver gives you a gift. You have a option to recieve the gift in faith, or to reject it.

Recieve the gift in faith is no you cooperating with the giver, it is you freely receiving the gift the giver paid for.

You reject the gift, you reject the benefits of the gift.. And that's on you.

The only thing you will earn or merit as far as salvation gospel is condemnation.

Inserted a contradiction into Scripture, or into someone's understanding of Scripture?
If ones understanding inserts a contradiction. then the persons understanding is in error. They can use this (like I have in the past) to research and resolve the misunderstanding. or they can continue to ignore the issue that their understanding makes the word of God contradict itself.

that is why the word is so powerful. it interprets itself. and it gives us all a means to check and balance our understanding


The entire discussion is about the internality of Positional Sanctification yet many of the disagreements over Experiential Sanctification and abiding remain.
I disagree.

the entire discussion is based on the fact that positional sanctification is only assured, if our conditional sanctification takes place. It has always been the case of legalistic view that our justification is based on our sanctification. - ie. we are eternally justified, as long as we continue to grow and do works. if our works stop. or we fail to meet some standard. then our positional sanctification (justification) ceases to exist. and we are lost.




Perfected in Christ? There are concepts of becoming experientially perfected/completed in Christ and His being perfected through obedience in what He suffered and the entire Salvation Plan being accomplished, but Positional Sanctification called being perfected in Christ?
I just go off the word.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

perfected forever is in the perfect tense. a completed action.

being sanctified is in the preseent tense in the passive voice. It is ongoing, and it is not us doing the work. it is God doing the work to us.

I would stop tryign to take credit away from God. just my own personal opinion. But I rest on it.

It's your opinion that there is no justification in #2, but justification simply means declared righteous and there are tests and trials that the concept can apply to. We're not under law in the Mosaic era sense, but how do you read James re Abraham for example?
I can not be justified ( a completed action) while I am still being justified.

Your right, It literally means to be declared righteous. But in all aspects of # 2, According to Gods commands, I am still not righteous. I am still guilty, because I still fall short of Gods standard (the wages of sin is death, the gift of God is life.)

to be justified is the means we are born again. set free from the penalty of sin. declaired righteous. paid in full

by one offing I have been perfected forever.

No concerns about some not continuing to trust?
No, Because people do not just stop trusting what saved them, and 2nd, again, John said those who stop believing (they deny christ in unbelief) were never saved.

Not sure why you continue to argue against the word.

So, the never believed position. Maybe you answered below, but Soils #2 & 3?
John said they were NEVER OF US
James said their FAITH WAS DEAD (lifeless, non existant,)

You take of it what you will. I can just go by what they said.

the only soil that produced fruit was the 4th soil.. Non of the rest produced any fruit. so where these soils that never did anythign for God to produce fruit (had no works ever) saved?

you tell me.

You can answer for everyone on the planet throughout history? Never experienced Christ? Absolute statements like this put me on guard and make me think at minimum of Heb6,
1. show me one person who truly professed Christ like the tax collector. Because they became poor in spirit (spiritually bancrupt) who changed his or her mind and wanted to go back to spiritual bankrupcy and back to being lost.

2. Heb 6. The author was talking to people who wanted to return to the law

according to the law. when you sinned, you had to give a sacrifice to be restored to God. (without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness)

The author is stating a fact , if we fall away (if it is possible) we can not be renewed to repentance. We are lost forever. there is no hope of returning..

and even claiming we could lose salvation (again returning to the law) puts Christ to open shame, because they claim the blood of bulls and goats is more important than the blood of our savior.


so you can not respond to the fact. and you think Gods standard is silly.. noted



Also silly. Just asking questions and responding to points you make.
I am just responding to points you make[/quote][/QUOTE]
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Yes.
When I believed The Gospel unto Salvation I became born again. Birth is an event, not a lifelong process.

That’s a “when did you stop beating your wife” type question.

If you’re born once, you die twice.

If you’re born twice, you die once.

I trust Jesus to keep me saved.
If I have to trust myself, I’m certain I’d fail.
Yes, birth is an event aka repentance or conversion through faith that begins eternal life, which is a process during which we keep trusting or having faith in Jesus, and there is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at rebirth/ conversion and faith that continues to accept God’s working grace while walking/being sanctified (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7, 2THS 1:3-4 & 2:13-17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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Have you seen a thread that is any different in this respect?
Actually, yes. Not necessarily the one who started the thread, but others who came along and posted an "Informational" icon, indicating that they had learned something new for them to study further.

MM
 
Dec 18, 2021
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Paul didn’t believe in OSAS…
Yeah actually he did

actually, he disproved it in Romans 6:1 and a host of other passages,
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This is not denying OSAS. this is telling us we are saved eternally. baptized into christ by God himself.. so why would we walk in sin?

but I guess your brain of OSAS refuses to see otherwise..hidden behind the dark sunglasses of OSAS lol…
Yeah. no pride here...

perhaps if the doctrine you believe and adhere to didn’t teach or isn’t notorious for teaching once you’re saved there’s not a sin you can commit to be lost, or perhaps if the history of it wasn’t that, then there’d be no need for someone to say that, now would it? Yet, because people such as yourself cannot stomach what the OSAS doctrine leads to and deep down teaches, you then accuse people of doing the very same thing as you…which is twisting scripture…simply for not believing in a doctrine that has a long filled history of teaching you can live in unrepentant sin and be saved. Thus, you are calling people who believe in obeying Jesus Pharisees to the core, and you and all the others will indeed answer for it. I understand how “comforting” OSAS can be…as it gives people the feel good mentality to be able to sin as much as they want…and takes any responsibility off of obedience due to always being saved. People such as yourself will not admit any of that, but it’s true. The more and more I engage with people who believe in OSAS, the more I realize how it’s filled with hypocritical people who is dishonest with what it really teaches…and dishonesty will get you nowhere. You also will be held accountable for that.
What sin did not get paid for on the cross?

can you name one?

OSAS truly does lead to a life of sin.
No actually it does not. Because those who adhere to it have truly repented.

Actually NOSAS leads to a life of sin. You sin, repent, its forgiven, you sin some more.

I’m not ever going to believe or have someone say it does not…and I’m not going to believe the lie that it means something different when it doesn’t. I have dealt with enough folks who believe in it to know otherwise.
Thats fine, remain in darkness. it does not bother us any

Anything you say to try to teach that it doesn’t will be conceding the “always saved” part.
Sorry Bud your not God. you do not get to tell us what we believe

If one is truly “always saved” then what Sam Morris and Bill Foster taught decades ago about it is true…but even you have issues with it. At least they had the guts to be consistent with what it teaches and believes. They actually could stomach it. Most people like to redefine it now due to not being able to stomach it. You probably fall in the latter.
Yawn.

Jesus taught OSAS long before these two men who I have never heard of did.



It looks like you don’t really believe in OSAS after all….
It looks like as usual. you do not know w3hat he believes,. or any of us for that matter.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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thats a far cry from peter crying out and begging forgiveness, or even repenting.
Forgiveness has already been addressed at the cross, that is foundational to the gospel. And it is repenting in its truest sense, imo, thinking again (about staying away from Christ) and returning back to Him (faithful in the possibility (believing of its likelihood) of forgiveness)
 
Dec 18, 2021
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Concerning John 6:39, that does not teach once you’re saved you will always be saved, or else it contradicts other passages, as well as the warnings. I can’t see how someone can honestly read the scriptures and believe the nonsensical belief of OSAS due to all the passages that teaches against it lol…I guess one has to be spoon fed it…like babies being spoon fed food..except OSAS is one that will cause spiritual GERD lol.
lol. Lets look at john

John 6:
27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ”

32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Rejected by His Own
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is [k]food indeed, and My blood is [l]drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a]hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”


read the bolded parts. all of these prove OSAS.
 
Dec 18, 2021
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Whichever version of OSAS someone believes in is still false doctrine. The version that teaches once you become a Christian that it’s impossible to apostatize (or commit such a sin as to be eternally lost)…and the version that says person so and so was never saved…is both false doctrines. Both versions of OSAS aren’t found in scriptures. I have never read a passage or found anywhere in the Bible that teaches once you become a Christian that it is impossible to be lost…and I have never read a passage or found anywhere in the Bible where someone tells a Christian (and when I say a Christian…I’m referring to someone who became a Christian according to the Bible) that they were never saved (as in never a Christian). The only version of OSAS that is true is once you are saved…you will always be saved based on following Jesus. In other words…the one who follows Jesus until the day he or she dies was and always will be saved. The one who quits will not be.
again

you want to earn salvation. feel free.

Your continued attack against us who trust God and God alone will not affect our salvation or our faith. You are speaking to no one.

convince yourself if you have to that you have to earn salvation. You will never convince us to follow you
 
Dec 18, 2021
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Forgiveness has already been addressed at the cross, that is foundational to the gospel. And it is repenting in its truest sense, imo, thinking again (about staying away from Christ) and returning back to Him (faithful in the possibility (believing of its likelihood) of forgiveness)
I am sorry I have no idea what this means

Peter was saved before he denied jesus, l and he was saved after.

Jesus just restored him so Peter could go out and do the work Jesus needed him to do
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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I am sorry I have no idea what this means

Peter was saved before he denied jesus, l and he was saved after.

Jesus just restored him so Peter could go out and do the work Jesus needed him to do
Just saying. Peter thought to go back to fishing, but he abandoned that idea.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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I see, your definition of repentance is asking for forgiveness. I have a different understanding of it.
In my understanding, repentance is a realization of God's true character, that He would not turn me away even though I have sinned so that I no longer feel He is so unapproachable (the Gospel). I think that one primary fear that keeps people, like Judas, away from 'repenting' and drawing near to Him. They are not as confident that He does forgive, as such the work of Jesus does indeed proclaim to all, that would give ear to hear it, course.
 
Dec 18, 2021
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I see, your definition of repentance is asking for forgiveness. I have a different understanding of it.
My defenition is changing ones mind

Peter never thought he did not know Jesus, He said he did not know him to protect himself.

He can;t repent. non of us do when we confess our sins. Unless we did not know it was a sin to begin with.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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My defenition is changing ones mind

Peter never thought he did not know Jesus, He said he did not know him to protect himself.

He can;t repent. non of us do when we confess our sins. Unless we did not know it was a sin to begin with.
I agree.

It is simply a change of mind. For or against His Gospel.

Even as believers, repent is a change of mind. No "feeling" sorry or "penance".....Name it and cite it to God and carry on.....for fellowship.

The Prodigal son had a sad sob story all ready for the father......The father cut Him off. Name it and cite it and be done.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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God gave me life. I did not have a choice of whether or not to accept it at the point of Him giving it to me. Some may take this and speak in terms of the physical life only, and say a person can throw their life away after the fact, and that is true... but when God gives you something spiritually, it is a done deal. My wicked stony heart ...which needed replacing because it was not good ground for receiving or growing the seed of God's Word, and my hostile to God mind, did not decide to believe that which was foolishess to me ... I did not decide to believe and then after that fact, God chose to give me life in His Son... nope... that is not the order of events at all. I was made alive and my heart was circumcised... and in that condition I was able to believe.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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God gave me life. I did not have a choice of whether or not to accept it at the point of Him giving it to me. Some may take this and speak in terms of the physical life only, and say a person can throw their life away after the fact, and that is true... but when God gives you something spiritually, it is a done deal. My wicked stony heart ...which needed replacing because it was not good ground for receiving or growing the seed of God's Word, and my hostile to God mind, did not decide to believe that which was foolishess to me ... I did not decide to believe and then after that fact, God chose to give me life in His Son... nope... that is not the order of events at all. I was made alive and my heart was circumcised... and in that condition I was able to believe.
Calvinism in a nutshell. So who has been misrepresenting your beliefs? Not me.
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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Calvinism in a nutshell. So who has been misrepresenting your beliefs? Not me.
I will agree that the people who stand with hyper-Calvinism are not the problem, given that they don't understand what a monster TULIP makes God out to be, almost always defended on the basis of God's Sovereignty.

The fact is, God is not sovereign in the absolute sense that the TULIP supporters assume. What that means is that the Lord cannot go against His very nature. The belief that the Lord says on one hand that He desires that ALL men come to saving faith in Him, and then turns right around and predetermines who will go to Hell at the exclusion of any choice that would lead to a legitimate responsibility on the part of individuals, that's a negation of the justice presented to us in His written word to us. That also stands as an accusation against the the Lord for doing what He clearly stated is absolutely against His own will for ALL mankind.

But, these objections generally fall upon deaf ears while the adherents hide behind (not a boulder, but rather) the pebble of an assumed, contrived level and definition of sovereignty that is nowhere expressed in the written word of God.

MM