Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
So now God saves by "furnishing those requirements"? I thought God "saved" people by furnishing everyone with salvation opportunities? Isn't God a seafarer who sees a man drowning in rough seas and provides an opportunity for the man to grab unto the life preserver that God tossed him -- very much unlike how the Good Samaritan ministered to a "half dead" man? In the parable, the Good Samaritan actually saved the helpless man; whereas in my analogy God provides only the opportunity for the drowning man to help God save him, making God only a potential savior. The drowning man must do his part in order to save himself.
2Cor 3-5
In the OT, the glory of God was the bright light that surrounded the presence of God. It led the Israelites out of Egypt as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire at night (Ex 13:21-22). Later, it filled the tabernacle under Moses (Ex 33:8-13); then it filled Solomon's temple (1Ki 8:10-11). Then the Glory departed Israel during their exile to Babylon due to their sins (Ezek 10:4, 18-19; 11:23). But it returned to Israel with Jesus' first advent (Jn 1:14), thereby supplanting and eclipsing the Shekinah Glory of the second temple, since Christ is the antitype to the OC temples (Jn 2:19); and this Glory will shine forever "in the face of Jesus" which stands in sharp contrast to Moses whose glory faded away from his face (2Cor 3:13).
Further, we have Paul's conversion in Acts 9 which is emblematic of everyone's spiritual conversion; for each of us who are truly born again have had our own version of Paul's On-the-Road-to-Damascus conversion experience, whether that experience was spectacular like Paul's or more or less "ordinary". God in his infinite wisdom knows how to deal with each of us according to our personalities and the conditions of our hearts. It's noteworthy, however, that Paul's conversion occurred after God sent his servant Ananias to heal the apostle's blindness.
Finally, Paul draws an analogy between the creation of Light in this physical world (Gen 1:3-5) and the spiritual New Creation whereby God shines his Light into his people's hearts to dispel the darkness,which epitomizes the very essence of unregenerate sinners; and He does this so that they may become children of Light (Eph 5:8). This metaphor should not be glossed over or dismissed. For just as this physical world would not be able to produce life or sustain itself apart from Light which produces life, neither could there be a new creation apart from God shining the Light of Life (Jn 8:12) into dead, depraved, darkened minds and hearts. Paul himself ties in this creation language into the New Creation (2Cor 5:17).
Mr. Studier recently argued that 2Cor 4:6 was basically a one-time unique event with Paul (and maybe with other apostles?), and that God's efficacious work in shining his light into hearts was temporary and ended after the first century. However, there is nothing in this epistle that even remotely suggests that God's work has an expiration date on it. While I agree with Studier that Paul is alluding to a supernatural work that was done in him (very likely his Damascus Road experience), this alone does not translate into a one-time supernatural act or an act restricted to a particular time period. So, against the backdrop of my opening three paragraphs, what follows are my reasons why.
1. The eternal New Covenant has no expiration date on it (3:11), whereas the Old did, which of course is one of the big distinctions between the two. And the supernatural act Paul describes in chapter 4 occurred in and applies to this NC economy, and is consistent with the unconditional, unilateral promises of this covenant as revealed in Jer 31-32, Ezek 36, etc.
2. While it is true that God's supernatural work in Paul, Timothy and Silas (1:19) empowered them (4:7) to preach the Gospel with confidence, conviction, clarity, zeal and love, this doesn't mean that that work was restricted to just them or to others in only the first century. Quite to the contrary! Since two "ordinary" (non-apostolic) believers also shared in this specific, supernatural experience of grace (likely as part of their conversion experience), there is no compelling reason to believe that others didn't and aren't currently experiencing the same grace of God today. Moreover, we should bear in mind that Paul broaches this whole subject in the personal context of him defending his calling from God to the office of apostleship, generally, and his call to minister to the Corinthians more specifically. He contrasted himself with phony apostles, preachers and teachers, who unlike Paul, Timothy and Silas, were not so empowered by God (4:7).
3. Paul was made a minister of the New Covenant. But was he the only or last minister of the eternal NC? Are we to believe the Church has been bereft of any such ministers for nearly 2,000 years now? Pastors, teachers, evangelists, missionaries and and all other kinds of Christians are not ministers of the NC today? Was God's inner revelation of his Glory during this NC era also temporary the way it was under the OC? Yet, Paul taught that the glory of the NC is permanent (3:11). If God's glory was manifested in brick 'n' mortal OC temples (a mere type), it's no longer manifested in the antitype, i.e. his true, eternal, spiritual temple who is Christ and in his Body which are living stones to that temple (1Pet 2:5)? Christians today are no longer ambassadors of Christ (5:20), or aren't involved in any ministry of reconciliation whenever they preach or share the gospel with anyone (5:18-19)?
4. Since God deemed it necessary to shine the light of his glory by his Spirit into the hearts of Paul, Timothy and Silas during their conversion, then how did it become unnecessary for any of God's elect throughout this NC age to receive this grace? Do unbelievers today have better hearts than their first century counterparts? Or is Satan no longer blinding the minds of unbelievers to keep them in the dark? Is the devil no longer holding the world captive to do his will (1Jn 5:19)? Is there no more veil to be lifted in Christ (3:14, 16)? The world today doesn't have to concern itself with such a veil? It was Paul who completed Christ's work of destroying the works of the devil (1Jn 3:8), making it unnecessary for any believer or unbeliever today to be concerned about the wiles and schemes of Satan?
5. Paul, in hearkening back to his old/new creation analogy (4:6) told the Corinthians that if anyone is in Christ, he is a "new creation" (5:17). To deny that 4:6 is as applicable today to Christians as it was in Paul's day is tantamount to denying that modern Christians have been so thoroughly transformed into the image of the Lord (3:18) that they could indeed be called God's "new creation". The old things have passed away; all things have become new; for all Christians were once Darkness in their very essence but are now children of Light due to God's powerful, efficacious work of shining his Light into their hearts. This fact accounts for how Christians are God's New Creation! Therefore, the Light which God shines into the hearts of his people is as critically essential to spiritual life and the transformation which flows therefrom, as was the light that God called into his physical creation to produce, support and sustain physical life. Where there is no Light, there is no Life in either of these two realities!
6. Lastly, if 4:6 was just an anomaly peculiar to the first century, then the Gospel is not truly being preached today since God put that "word of reconciliation" (5:19) only into the hearts of Paul, Timothy and Silas. Therefore, just what kind of Gospel is being preached and taught today if not the "word of reconciliation" to a lost world?
While it is is very convenient and easy to dismiss 2Cor 4:6 as but a work of God that only applied to Paul, and I suppose other first century believers, as well, nonetheless very serious theological issues arise for those who want to posit the temporary or transitory nature of the supernatural, efficacious phenomenon that occurred in this New Covenant dispensation, since all God's spiritual work in this age is permanent and in fact will be culminated in the New Order at the Parousia.
In the OT, the glory of God was the bright light that surrounded the presence of God. It led the Israelites out of Egypt as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire at night (Ex 13:21-22). Later, it filled the tabernacle under Moses (Ex 33:8-13); then it filled Solomon's temple (1Ki 8:10-11). Then the Glory departed Israel during their exile to Babylon due to their sins (Ezek 10:4, 18-19; 11:23). But it returned to Israel with Jesus' first advent (Jn 1:14), thereby supplanting and eclipsing the Shekinah Glory of the second temple, since Christ is the antitype to the OC temples (Jn 2:19); and this Glory will shine forever "in the face of Jesus" which stands in sharp contrast to Moses whose glory faded away from his face (2Cor 3:13).
Further, we have Paul's conversion in Acts 9 which is emblematic of everyone's spiritual conversion; for each of us who are truly born again have had our own version of Paul's On-the-Road-to-Damascus conversion experience, whether that experience was spectacular like Paul's or more or less "ordinary". God in his infinite wisdom knows how to deal with each of us according to our personalities and the conditions of our hearts. It's noteworthy, however, that Paul's conversion occurred after God sent his servant Ananias to heal the apostle's blindness.
Finally, Paul draws an analogy between the creation of Light in this physical world (Gen 1:3-5) and the spiritual New Creation whereby God shines his Light into his people's hearts to dispel the darkness,which epitomizes the very essence of unregenerate sinners; and He does this so that they may become children of Light (Eph 5:8). This metaphor should not be glossed over or dismissed. For just as this physical world would not be able to produce life or sustain itself apart from Light which produces life, neither could there be a new creation apart from God shining the Light of Life (Jn 8:12) into dead, depraved, darkened minds and hearts. Paul himself ties in this creation language into the New Creation (2Cor 5:17).
Mr. Studier recently argued that 2Cor 4:6 was basically a one-time unique event with Paul (and maybe with other apostles?), and that God's efficacious work in shining his light into hearts was temporary and ended after the first century. However, there is nothing in this epistle that even remotely suggests that God's work has an expiration date on it. While I agree with Studier that Paul is alluding to a supernatural work that was done in him (very likely his Damascus Road experience), this alone does not translate into a one-time supernatural act or an act restricted to a particular time period. So, against the backdrop of my opening three paragraphs, what follows are my reasons why.
1. The eternal New Covenant has no expiration date on it (3:11), whereas the Old did, which of course is one of the big distinctions between the two. And the supernatural act Paul describes in chapter 4 occurred in and applies to this NC economy, and is consistent with the unconditional, unilateral promises of this covenant as revealed in Jer 31-32, Ezek 36, etc.
2. While it is true that God's supernatural work in Paul, Timothy and Silas (1:19) empowered them (4:7) to preach the Gospel with confidence, conviction, clarity, zeal and love, this doesn't mean that that work was restricted to just them or to others in only the first century. Quite to the contrary! Since two "ordinary" (non-apostolic) believers also shared in this specific, supernatural experience of grace (likely as part of their conversion experience), there is no compelling reason to believe that others didn't and aren't currently experiencing the same grace of God today. Moreover, we should bear in mind that Paul broaches this whole subject in the personal context of him defending his calling from God to the office of apostleship, generally, and his call to minister to the Corinthians more specifically. He contrasted himself with phony apostles, preachers and teachers, who unlike Paul, Timothy and Silas, were not so empowered by God (4:7).
3. Paul was made a minister of the New Covenant. But was he the only or last minister of the eternal NC? Are we to believe the Church has been bereft of any such ministers for nearly 2,000 years now? Pastors, teachers, evangelists, missionaries and and all other kinds of Christians are not ministers of the NC today? Was God's inner revelation of his Glory during this NC era also temporary the way it was under the OC? Yet, Paul taught that the glory of the NC is permanent (3:11). If God's glory was manifested in brick 'n' mortal OC temples (a mere type), it's no longer manifested in the antitype, i.e. his true, eternal, spiritual temple who is Christ and in his Body which are living stones to that temple (1Pet 2:5)? Christians today are no longer ambassadors of Christ (5:20), or aren't involved in any ministry of reconciliation whenever they preach or share the gospel with anyone (5:18-19)?
4. Since God deemed it necessary to shine the light of his glory by his Spirit into the hearts of Paul, Timothy and Silas during their conversion, then how did it become unnecessary for any of God's elect throughout this NC age to receive this grace? Do unbelievers today have better hearts than their first century counterparts? Or is Satan no longer blinding the minds of unbelievers to keep them in the dark? Is the devil no longer holding the world captive to do his will (1Jn 5:19)? Is there no more veil to be lifted in Christ (3:14, 16)? The world today doesn't have to concern itself with such a veil? It was Paul who completed Christ's work of destroying the works of the devil (1Jn 3:8), making it unnecessary for any believer or unbeliever today to be concerned about the wiles and schemes of Satan?
5. Paul, in hearkening back to his old/new creation analogy (4:6) told the Corinthians that if anyone is in Christ, he is a "new creation" (5:17). To deny that 4:6 is as applicable today to Christians as it was in Paul's day is tantamount to denying that modern Christians have been so thoroughly transformed into the image of the Lord (3:18) that they could indeed be called God's "new creation". The old things have passed away; all things have become new; for all Christians were once Darkness in their very essence but are now children of Light due to God's powerful, efficacious work of shining his Light into their hearts. This fact accounts for how Christians are God's New Creation! Therefore, the Light which God shines into the hearts of his people is as critically essential to spiritual life and the transformation which flows therefrom, as was the light that God called into his physical creation to produce, support and sustain physical life. Where there is no Light, there is no Life in either of these two realities!
6. Lastly, if 4:6 was just an anomaly peculiar to the first century, then the Gospel is not truly being preached today since God put that "word of reconciliation" (5:19) only into the hearts of Paul, Timothy and Silas. Therefore, just what kind of Gospel is being preached and taught today if not the "word of reconciliation" to a lost world?
While it is is very convenient and easy to dismiss 2Cor 4:6 as but a work of God that only applied to Paul, and I suppose other first century believers, as well, nonetheless very serious theological issues arise for those who want to posit the temporary or transitory nature of the supernatural, efficacious phenomenon that occurred in this New Covenant dispensation, since all God's spiritual work in this age is permanent and in fact will be culminated in the New Order at the Parousia.
I don't believe that possible. if it is a gift of God "by grace", "through faith", then for it to truly be a gift as we are told it is, no part of it could be required to be satisfied by man, and must be solely satisfied by God, otherwise, simply, it wouldn't be a gift, placing the verse in contradiction to itself - it can't be half and half. IOW for it to be logically consistent, both the grace and the faith had to be part of the gift, and that solely from God, otherwise, it wouldn't be one.
So, if I by grace give someone a position in my business, they do not need to believe I have and turn up and do any work to receive that position, otherwise it was never really a gift? You calvinists redefine the meanings of words in the Bible to mean things no one thinks they mean in normal discourse.
-
1
- Show all
There you go again comparing the earthly with the spiritual. The two aren't comparable - that is why we are told to compare
spiritual with spiritual. When, and if, you are able to look from that level, you will be better able to understand spiritual doctrine and meaning. Until then, you will be stuck within the temporal oblivious to the spiritual.
Salvation is a gift given fully, completely and solely, by an exceedingly merciful and gracious God through Jesus Christ the Savior, and no other way.
[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
spiritual with spiritual. When, and if, you are able to look from that level, you will be better able to understand spiritual doctrine and meaning. Until then, you will be stuck within the temporal oblivious to the spiritual.
Salvation is a gift given fully, completely and solely, by an exceedingly merciful and gracious God through Jesus Christ the Savior, and no other way.
[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Umm, the gift of salvation has been provided by the kindness of God through our Saviour Lord Jesus Christ Eph. 2:7 that's " by grace" and when it is received that's "through faith". Some one had already posted here that a gift is still gift either received or rejected. I just think, you are going into a circle not verifed according to plain context. Of corse, I still plea to consider again the word " through" or " ye" to go back to whose faith is this. Thanks
Usual m.o. as I expected.
There was another guy years ago I had discussions with who had a similar m.o. and I finally had to tell him that his practice was to throw a bunch of _____ against the wall and expect others to clean it up. It's just a form of obfuscation to take us away from looking at and working on the actual Scripture under discussion.
Glancing through your novel, I didn't see a response to any of the Text where Paul speaks in 2Cor3 of men who [actively] turn to the Lord in the context of Paul's ministry of the Spirit, of righteousness, of the Gospel of Christ. If I missed your specific response, would you mind pointing it out to me?
So, here's my throw against the wall and I'll attempt to remain focused mainly on the 2Cor3-4 Text:
I've actually done some more reading and interpreting of the verses in 2Cor3-4 that I posted some analysis about. Here are some general points:
There was another guy years ago I had discussions with who had a similar m.o. and I finally had to tell him that his practice was to throw a bunch of _____ against the wall and expect others to clean it up. It's just a form of obfuscation to take us away from looking at and working on the actual Scripture under discussion.
Glancing through your novel, I didn't see a response to any of the Text where Paul speaks in 2Cor3 of men who [actively] turn to the Lord in the context of Paul's ministry of the Spirit, of righteousness, of the Gospel of Christ. If I missed your specific response, would you mind pointing it out to me?
So, here's my throw against the wall and I'll attempt to remain focused mainly on the 2Cor3-4 Text:
I've actually done some more reading and interpreting of the verses in 2Cor3-4 that I posted some analysis about. Here are some general points:
- Paul is indeed talking about his Gospel ministry and of men turning to the Lord [in response to the Gospel]
- But like much of the discussion about the Gospel and Salvation in the NC being most often about the progressive sanctification aspect of the full scope of the Gospel and of Salvation, Paul is also doing this in 2Cor3-4.
- Though Paul is speaking of the Mosaic ministry and of his NC ministry, and men who turn to the Lord or reject Him, Paul is also talking to these Christians about growth in Christ. Remaining in context in 2Cor3-4 I'm going to do this out of sequence to make the point:
- 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Cor. 3:16-18 NKJ)
- Paul has been speaking about his ministry of the NC Gospel of Christ
- Some men turn to the Lord
- They have Freedom where the Lord the Spirit is
- They are seeing the Lord's glory as in a mirror
- They are being transformed by the Spirit the Lord into the same [glorious] image
- This is more of the full scope of the Gospel and what is taking place in Christians
- Paul is interweaving a transition here from entrance into Christ to walking in Christ and beyond from glory to glory
- 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. (2 Cor. 3:2-3 NKJ)
- This is how Paul had referred to these Christians to begin this chapter 3.
- These Christians had become living letters/epistles. They had been in the transformation process.
- Some Chronology and a few points: (links provided)
- By the time 2Cor was written by Paul and Timothy 2Cor1:1 the Corinthians has been in Christ for about 7+years
- Paul & Timothy wrote 2Cor in AD57
- Paul had spent 3.5 years teaching in Corinth Acts18
- Paul was evangelizing in the region in AD48
- Paul was in Corinth in the AD49-52 era and 53-57
- Timothy had been with Paul in AD50-51 & 53-57
- Paul was converted AD35 era and spent years in studies & growth thereafter
- Timothy had been in a believing household 2Tim1:5
- Paul's relationship with Timothy was close 2Tim1:2 et.al. and they had spent years together (see above)
- Apollos was in Corinth Acts19. Erastus was in Corinth 2Tim4
- Here's my point:
- These verses are showing some substantial spiritual development in these Corinthians and there are many reasons and years why.
- As I read 2Cor3 we can see this development 3:2-3 - then coupled with Paul's and Timothy's teaching we can see how it takes place in unveiled and free Christians seeing the glory of Christ as in a mirror and being transformed into the same image 3:16-18.
- 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on/in them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Cor. 4:4-6 NKJ)
- I'm therefore amending my previous post.
- I don't think this is really about conversion as much as (if at all) it is about what happens after conversion
- When I studied Salvation comprehensively years ago, I was shown how most of the writings about Salvation in the NC Epistles are looking through entrance into Christ and focusing on the Christian Walk in Christ and beyond to the end.
- The NC epistles focus is on developing mature adult sons from the newborn infants
- IOW Paul is not so much focused in 2Cor3-4 on entrance but in making more living epistles after they turn to the Lord in believing response to his Gospel.
- In his approximately 22 years in Christ and his approximately 7 years with Timothy at the time, they had been looking into the mirror seeing the Lord's glory and being transformed into that image from glory to glory.
- I think this is what Paul is talking about in 4:6
- If someone gets to the level of looking at the aorist verb translated above as "shone" - look at the explanation of a Constative Aorist. if you want a copy of its explanation, let me know. The concept being that it's durative and is not specifically dealing with the beginning or end of the action (which we can fill in re: the beginning from 3:16-18 and the end from other verses that speak of the end of our life here after the transformation process).
- If someone is concerned about the mention of the Gospel in 4:4, please note that the Gospel is vast in scope and contains more and more detail as explained in the NC including and beyond what Paul says in 4:17-18. It begins with some vital basics about Jesus being the Christ and continues to provide greater and greater detail about what God has prepared for those who love Him. This greater detail of the Gospel is what is contained in the NC Epistles. It's also what Paul is talking about in 1Cor2 re; the natural man not being able to comprehend. Paul is saying the same thing here. If you don't turn and enter upon hearing the basics, you'll never understand these deeper things (like transformation) that spiritual men learn.
- IOW P&T's concern re: entrance into Christ was dealt with in 3:16 - by 4:4 P&T are saying unbelieving men will never see this face-to-face glory of God in the face of Christ (they do not turn to the Lord and therefore never get to begin seeing His glory as in a mirror let alone know what Paul and Timothy know by now) - in 4:5 as I said in the previous post Paul is explaining at minimum 4:1-4 or 4:2-4 - and in 4:6 he's saying he and Timothy are proclaiming Christ Jesus Lord because God has shone in their hearts (over a period of years) to give them the knowledge of God's glory in Jesus' Christ's face (that he and Timothy have been looking at as in a mirror while being transformed for years into His image).
- Another reason I think this is what P&T are saying is that there is no indication in the Text I know of that speaks of Timothy having some miraculous experience in light with Jesus Christ at his conversion. It seems his conversion was being evangelized by his mother and grandmother, so he was taught the light of the converting Gospel.
- 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Cor. 3:16-18 NKJ)
What are parables, if not comparing spiritual thing with earthly things? God designed creation to express spiritual truths parabolically. Where does Paul ever say that we should never compare spiritual things with earthly things? He doesn't.
Where does Paul ever say that we should only compare spiritual things with spiritual? He doesn't.
Where does Paul ever say that we should only compare spiritual things with spiritual? He doesn't.
-
1
- Show all
"God designed" parables, yes, and they part of scripture. But those weren't what I was referring to; I was referring to YOUR parables - parables that you constructed - non-biblical, humanistic parables based purely upon earthly things of your construct for demonstrating spiritual principles. I personally believe it a good idea to limit oneself to only those parables designated as such by scripture.
God tells us below that we should compare spiritual with spiritual. A scriptural parable has spiritual value.
[1Co 2:13, 14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
God tells us below that we should compare spiritual with spiritual. A scriptural parable has spiritual value.
[1Co 2:13, 14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.