Is Open Theism Heresy?
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how many witnesses do you need?
while you can give zero that say you chose Him while you were dead and an alie Ln and stranger to Him. that, in fact, is human philosophy, which holds its own will sacrosanct, allowing no room for God to exert His.
how about let scripture inform us?
does this say you chose God or that God chose you?
does it say you called Him?
does it say you walked out of darkness on your own, looking for Him?
who gets the glory here, bro?
did God save us or did we graciously agree to give Him our business?
while you can give zero that say you chose Him while you were dead and an alie Ln and stranger to Him. that, in fact, is human philosophy, which holds its own will sacrosanct, allowing no room for God to exert His.
how about let scripture inform us?
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light
is this about some super Christian, not you? does this say you chose God or that God chose you?
does it say you called Him?
does it say you walked out of darkness on your own, looking for Him?
who gets the glory here, bro?
did God save us or did we graciously agree to give Him our business?
yes that's the point.
you aren't the center, i am not the center, the apostles are not the center, some famous preacher is not the center, @PaulThomson is not the center, human logic is not the center.
Jesus Christ is.
all things are by Him, for Him, and through Him.
you aren't the center, i am not the center, the apostles are not the center, some famous preacher is not the center, @PaulThomson is not the center, human logic is not the center.
Jesus Christ is.
all things are by Him, for Him, and through Him.
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This underlined comment is a statement of your personal beliefs. It is not a citation of something said explicitly in scripture. There have been several excellent analogies offered to help you and others understand how Paul's phraseology might be reasonably understood in a way that does not entail God choosing the specific individuals before the foundation of the world but rather a class whose personal identities were not yet determined at the time the class was chosen.
The Whitehouse choses toinvite a choir from a particular music academy to provide a choir for an event in the Rose Garden at the end of the year. The academy choir has been chosen. but the actual participants in the choir are not. Students go through auditions and practices to be selected over time as members of that choir. While they are preparing during the run-up to the actual performance, and one of the present choir cohort could say "The president in January chose us in this choir to perform in the Rose Gardens in December." This would be absolutely true, even though the identity of each memeber was not chosen by the President.
To reject this analogy and insist that the text of Eph 1 can only mean that God chose, before the foundation of the world, the exact individuals who would be in His church in the first century, is obviously confirmation bias and ideological stubbornness in those who do so.
The Whitehouse choses toinvite a choir from a particular music academy to provide a choir for an event in the Rose Garden at the end of the year. The academy choir has been chosen. but the actual participants in the choir are not. Students go through auditions and practices to be selected over time as members of that choir. While they are preparing during the run-up to the actual performance, and one of the present choir cohort could say "The president in January chose us in this choir to perform in the Rose Gardens in December." This would be absolutely true, even though the identity of each memeber was not chosen by the President.
To reject this analogy and insist that the text of Eph 1 can only mean that God chose, before the foundation of the world, the exact individuals who would be in His church in the first century, is obviously confirmation bias and ideological stubbornness in those who do so.
the text says He chose "us"
open theism says He did not have a clue whether there would even be a Christ, much less whether anyone would ever be a Christian
Ephesians 1:4-6
He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
open theism says He did not have a clue whether there would even be a Christ, much less whether anyone would ever be a Christian
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The word "according" is important because it takes the context back to verse 3. The context is not us, but what is found in Christ...the spiritual blessings in heavenly places. These blessings were chosen even before the foundation of the world. The enter chapter describes the blessings found in Christ. I realize that Calvinists like to make it say, "he has chosen us to be in him before the foundation of the world" but that's simply no what it states. Adding to the word of God is not good bible study.
Ephesians 1:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
You clearly have not listened with an ear to understand what Open Theists are telling you they believe, and you are merely looking for some turn of phrase from their posts that you can wrest out of context and use to poison the well.
According to Open Theists, God is, some say omnipotent, or some say omni-competent, meaning that He can achieve whatever He wants to achieve when He wants to achieve something, and no opposing force is adequate to prevent Him from doing what He is determined to do. This is how God is able to make happen prophecies He wants to fulfil, according to Open Theism. Not by exhaustively foreknowing the future, but by intervening in history using either persuasion or His powerful agency. When you say things like "Open Theism says He [God] did not have a clue whether there would even be a Christ," you are demonstrating either serious ignorance regarding Open Theism or spiteful malevolent deceitfulness. Hopefully its the former and you will become better informed by re-reading the posts in this thread.
According to Open Theists, God is, some say omnipotent, or some say omni-competent, meaning that He can achieve whatever He wants to achieve when He wants to achieve something, and no opposing force is adequate to prevent Him from doing what He is determined to do. This is how God is able to make happen prophecies He wants to fulfil, according to Open Theism. Not by exhaustively foreknowing the future, but by intervening in history using either persuasion or His powerful agency. When you say things like "Open Theism says He [God] did not have a clue whether there would even be a Christ," you are demonstrating either serious ignorance regarding Open Theism or spiteful malevolent deceitfulness. Hopefully its the former and you will become better informed by re-reading the posts in this thread.
PaulThomson said:
There have been several excellent analogies offered to help you and others understand how Paul's phraseology might be reasonably understood in a way that does not entail God choosing the specific individuals before the foundation of the world but rather a class whose personal identities were not yet determined at the time the class was chosen.
The Whitehouse chooses to invite a choir from a particular music academy to perform for an event in the Rose Garden at the end of the year. The particular academy has been chosen. but the actual participants in the academy's choir are not. Students go through auditions and practices to be selected over time as members of that choir. While they are preparing, during the run-up to the actual performance, one of the present choir cohort could say,
"The president in January chose us in this choir to perform in the Rose Gardens in December." This would be absolutely true, even though the identity of each member was not chosen by the President.
To reject this analogy and insist that the text of Eph 1 can only mean that God chose, before the foundation of the world, the exact individuals who would be in His church in the first century, is obviously confirmation bias and ideological stubbornness in those who do so.
Actually, what it says is "He chose us in Him..." Just like the President chose us in the particular academy's choir, without choosing the individuals who would populate the choir.
There have been several excellent analogies offered to help you and others understand how Paul's phraseology might be reasonably understood in a way that does not entail God choosing the specific individuals before the foundation of the world but rather a class whose personal identities were not yet determined at the time the class was chosen.
The Whitehouse chooses to invite a choir from a particular music academy to perform for an event in the Rose Garden at the end of the year. The particular academy has been chosen. but the actual participants in the academy's choir are not. Students go through auditions and practices to be selected over time as members of that choir. While they are preparing, during the run-up to the actual performance, one of the present choir cohort could say,
"The president in January chose us in this choir to perform in the Rose Gardens in December." This would be absolutely true, even though the identity of each member was not chosen by the President.
To reject this analogy and insist that the text of Eph 1 can only mean that God chose, before the foundation of the world, the exact individuals who would be in His church in the first century, is obviously confirmation bias and ideological stubbornness in those who do so.
Actually, what it says is "He chose us in Him..." Just like the President chose us in the particular academy's choir, without choosing the individuals who would populate the choir.
Do not deceive yourself: proof-texting is YOUR opinion.
The context extends from RM 3:20, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law" all the way until RM 11:7, "What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain; the elect among them did, but the others were hardened."
Thus, we see that "none" in 3:11 does not include "Israel" in 11:7, although the non-elect sought God's salvation the wrong way, and only the elect shared Abraham's saving faith (RM 4:16-25).
This full gospel is God speaking, IMO.
The context extends from RM 3:20, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law" all the way until RM 11:7, "What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain; the elect among them did, but the others were hardened."
Thus, we see that "none" in 3:11 does not include "Israel" in 11:7, although the non-elect sought God's salvation the wrong way, and only the elect shared Abraham's saving faith (RM 4:16-25).
This full gospel is God speaking, IMO.