Understanding God’s election

[Mem]

On the one hand I in essence so agree. On the other hand, people including if not especially professing Christians, don't shock me that much anymore if at all. It just is.

Thanks for being someone who is still digging out the treasure. Thankfully God still has His who are doing this at varying level around this globe.

Thanks for your determination in cleaning up the hot mess strewn all over these walls. It requires a certain steel resolve, I'm sure, and a generous amount of it to match the workload. And the pictures you so neatly hang on them are, imo, masterfully detailed gorgeous depictions of Christ our Lord... Oh, wait! I see they're actually mirrors!

 

[Rufus]

Quite wrong, but consistently traditional error.

You don't understand metaphors at all, do you? Besides, don't you know that the Son gives life to whom He wishes (Jn 5:21), and the Spirit gives life to whom he wishes (Jn 3:8; 6:63), and the Father gives and draws to the Son whom he wishes.

 

[Rufus]

Different than or along the same course as what I posted from 2Cor4?

And if you keep going in John12:

NET John12:42-43 Nevertheless, even among the rulers many believed in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess Jesus to be the Christ, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue. 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw Christ's glory, and spoke about him. 43 For they loved praise from men more than praise from God.

Much here to unravel, but Scripture is consistent. Some don't believe. Some do believe.

Shirley U R the master of understatements -- a breathing, walking, talking self-styled paragon of wisdom. Some believe, some don't? Who would have ever thunk? But in your world, the difference between the two groups -- the "haves" and "have nots" are the haves and have nots themselves. Meanwhile, the Word of God teaches that God long ago took from the one pile of have nots and made from them a second pile of haves. (Check out Rom 9 some day.) The biblical view is that God makes the difference, not vile, filthy, depraved, God-hating, Christ-hating, knowledge-hating, wisdom-hating, God-reviling, world-loving, self-loving, pleasure-loving, money-loving, darkness-loving children of the devil. The elect love God because He loved them first; the elect know God because he knew them first; the elect became sons and daughters of God because he not only initiated the work of salvation but will see it through to its completion.

Go pedal your man-exalting, humanistic theology somewhere else.

 

[studier]

You don't understand metaphors at all, do you? Besides, don't you know that the Son gives life to whom He wishes (Jn 5:21), and the Spirit gives life to whom he wishes (Jn 3:8; 6:63), and the Father gives and draws to the Son whom he wishes.

Yes, I do, thanks.

 

[studier]

Shirley U R the master of understatements -- a breathing, walking, talking self-styled paragon of wisdom. Some believe, some don't? Who would have ever thunk? But in your world, the difference between the two groups -- the "haves" and "have nots" are the haves and have nots themselves. Meanwhile, the Word of God teaches that God long ago took from the one pile of have nots and made from them a second pile of haves. (Check out Rom 9 some day.) The biblical view is that God makes the difference, not vile, filthy, depraved, God-hating, Christ-hating, knowledge-hating, wisdom-hating, God-reviling, world-loving, self-loving, pleasure-loving, money-loving, darkness-loving children of the devil. The elect love God because He loved them first; the elect know God because he knew them first; the elect became sons and daughters of God because he not only initiated the work of salvation but will see it through to its completion.

Go pedal your man-exalting, humanistic theology somewhere else.

Additional empty and expected tactical rhetoric. This time aggressively back to "T" again. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. (2 Cor. 3:16 NKJ). Good you only have 5 letters to work from.

 

[studier]

Thanks for your determination in cleaning up the hot mess strewn all over these walls. It requires a certain steel resolve, I'm sure, and a generous amount of it to match the workload. And the pictures you so neatly hang on them are, imo, masterfully detailed gorgeous depictions of Christ our Lord... Oh, wait! I see they're actually mirrors!

That's really very gracious. Thank you. It's very nice to know someone is paying attention to the Scriptural details like the mirrors we get to look into under grace, let alone the hot mess...experience(s). Thanks for letting me know...

 

[PaulThomson]

Yeah...okay. Man's fallible science is now the final authority of scripture. Why am I not surprised?

BTW, when Baby Jane Doe releases that small amount of protein that initiates labor, did she do that consciously? Was that a conscious, deliberate, premeditated decision on her part? Or if this is true, why couldn't it be a result of a God-ordained, natural biological process?

Which is what the scripture says.

The process (neuter gender) of salvation, that we are saved by grace (charis, feminine gender) through faith (pistis, feminine gender), that (Touto, neuter gender) is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God; just as the process of birth is God's design, not the baby''s. But we must contribute a small amount of our own faith to initiate the new birth, just as the baby need s to contribute a small amount of a specific protein to initiate the birth.

Also, according to the article I posted, artificially stimulating the birth prematurely with oxytocin, before the baby is fully developed in the womb and ready to be delivered, creates downstream developmental problems, just as perhaps trying to get the person converted by telling them to repeat this prayer, before they are prepared by the Holy Spirit enough to grasp the truth of the gospel sufficiently forthem to exercise their own faith, may produce "Christian converts who have some health issues after overzealous midwifery.
The point being that there is something the child in the womb does to initiate birth, whether consciously wanting to be outta here or or unconsciously due to God squeezing some of the protein out of the tube, we don't know. It being part of a process designed by God does not preclude some degree of intent by the baby in the womb.

 

[HeIsHere]

Which is what the scripture says.

The process (neuter gender) of salvation, that we are saved by grace (charis, feminine gender) through faith (pistis, feminine gender), that (Touto, neuter gender) is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God; just as the process of birth is God's design, not the baby''s. But we must contribute a small amount of our own faith to initiate the new birth, just as the baby need s to contribute a small amount of a specific protein to initiate the birth.

Also, according to the article I posted, artificially stimulating the birth prematurely with oxytocin, before the baby is fully developed in the womb and ready to be delivered, creates downstream developmental problems, just as perhaps trying to get the person converted by telling them to repeat this prayer, before they are prepared by the Holy Spirit enough to grasp the truth of the gospel sufficiently forthem to exercise their own faith, may produce "Christian converts who have some health issues after overzealous midwifery.
The point being that there is something the child in the womb does to initiate birth, whether consciously wanting to be outta here or or unconsciously due to God squeezing some of the protein out of the tube, we don't know. It being part of a process designed by God does not preclude some degree of intent by the baby in the womb.

Mr. Thomson, all this has been put forth over and over again, sometimes don't you feel like this.......

 

[PaulThomson]

Which is what the scripture says.

The process (neuter gender) of salvation, that we are saved by grace (charis, feminine gender) through faith (pistis, feminine gender), that (Touto, neuter gender) is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God; just as the process of birth is God's design, not the baby''s. But we must contribute a small amount of our own faith to initiate the new birth, just as the baby need s to contribute a small amount of a specific protein to initiate the birth.

Also, according to the article I posted, artificially stimulating the birth prematurely with oxytocin, before the baby is fully developed in the womb and ready to be delivered, creates downstream developmental problems, just as perhaps trying to get the person converted by telling them to repeat this prayer, before they are prepared by the Holy Spirit enough to grasp the truth of the gospel sufficiently forthem to exercise their own faith, may produce "Christian converts who have some health issues after overzealous midwifery.
The point being that there is something the child in the womb does to initiate birth, whether consciously wanting to be outta here or or unconsciously due to God squeezing some of the protein out of the tube, we don't know. It being part of a process designed by God does not preclude some degree of intent by the baby in the womb.

Having meditate on the natural pregnancy process and the spiritual evangelisation and new birth process, here are some of my thoughts on the parabolic matches.

The woman is the world in which a person is living. The unbelievers are the ova/eggs. The ovaries are the more narrow cultural milieu in which the unbelievers live. The word of God is the seed/sperm. The womb is the church.

An unbeliever starts to become disaffected by some of their native cultural norms and an egg moves away from the ovary to travel down the fallopian tube. A sperm enters the egg and something from God's word is received by the unbeliever. The fertilised egg inplants in the uterine wall and starts to receive nutrition from the womb. The unbeliever attaches to some member/s of the church and starts to receive nutrition from the church. The baby grows until it feel cramped and under pressure in the woman and wants to be released, and the unbeliever grows in understanding until they become uncomfortable and constricted by the world and wants leave the world. The child when fully developed secretes a small amount of protein that causes the woman to expel the child, and when the unbeliever has sufficient understanding of the gospel to start living as a Christian independently of the world they express a mustard seed of faith in Christ, which causes the world to react and expel them. This expulsion is often, but not always, traumatic for the mother and the child or both, but is necessary for the child to survive. and thrive Leaving one's cultural traditions to embrace the Christian Way is also often traumatic for the convert and their community, but is necessary for the newly-believing convert to survive and thrive.

 

[PaulThomson]

Mr. Thomson, all this has been put forth over and over again, sometimes don't you feel like this.......

If my own understanding and faith and my ability to communicate those were not growing from these interactions with intransigent idealogues, and I did not believe my responses could be helpful to genuine truth-seekers, I would feel like that. But I actua;;y feel like this....

 

[PaulThomson]

You don't understand metaphors at all, do you? Besides, don't you know that the Son gives life to whom He wishes (Jn 5:21), and the Spirit gives life to whom he wishes (Jn 3:8; 6:63), and the Father gives and draws to the Son whom he wishes.

Do you realise that the default reading of the present tense in KoinE reek is as a progressive present. The gnomic present is generally applicable only if the progressive does not make sense contextually. In these texts the progressive as descriptive of the working of the Spirit in Jesus ministry, makes sense. Extrapolating that into universal aphorisms is not what the narrative genre is expecting us to do every time we see the present tense..

Jhn 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can be doing nothing of himself, but what he is seeing the Father do: for what things soever that one (ekeinos, the Father) is doing, these also the Son is doing likewise.
Jhn 5:20
For the Father is loving the Son, and is showing him all things that he (autos, the Son) is doing: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may be marveling.
Jhn 5:21
For as the Father is raising up the dead, and is quickening them; even so the Son is quickening whom he (the father) is willing.
Jhn 5:22
For the Father is judging no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

The Son is giving life to whom He wishes makes sense with the He being the Father. So, reading this as a universal truth for all times.

John 3:8 does not say that the spirit give life to whom He wishes.

Jhn 6:63
The spirit that is the one quickening; the flesh is profiting nothing: the words that I am speaking unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

To extrapolate these texts into a declaration that the new birth is completely God's activity without any input from the converting soul goes beyond what the language says. Yes, a man could never save Himself without God by merely willing to be saved. And it is completely within God's prerogative to determine how he will design the salvation process and whom he will offer salvation to. But none of this mandates that God does it all, and the convert does absolutely nothing towards his salvation. If God wants to require a mustard seed of faith from the man as part of the process, that does not make salvation by the will of man ,who did not design the process nor perform most of the process.

 

[PaulThomson]

Shirley U R the master of understatements -- a breathing, walking, talking self-styled paragon of wisdom. Some believe, some don't? Who would have ever thunk? But in your world, the difference between the two groups -- the "haves" and "have nots" are the haves and have nots themselves. Meanwhile, the Word of God teaches that God long ago took from the one pile of have nots and made from them a second pile of haves. (Check out Rom 9 some day.) The biblical view is that God makes the difference, not vile, filthy, depraved, God-hating, Christ-hating, knowledge-hating, wisdom-hating, God-reviling, world-loving, self-loving, pleasure-loving, money-loving, darkness-loving children of the devil. The elect love God because He loved them first; the elect know God because he knew them first; the elect became sons and daughters of God because he not only initiated the work of salvation but will see it through to its completion.

Go pedal your man-exalting, humanistic theology somewhere else.

It sounds like you really despise most of mankind, other than your kind. By their fruit you shall know them.

 

[Magenta]

It is called retro-fitting.

That's what free willers do. They wrongfully assume that because they have come to believe,
that they chose to do so of their own free will while they were captive to the will of the devil,
a slave to sin, and a lover of darkness... even though Jesus says otherwise.

 

[Magenta]

John 15:5c; Philippians 2:13 Apart from Me you can do nothing. For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.

 

[GWH]

Is it just me or is everyone else unable to use the bold and underline features lately?

 

[PaulThomson]

Shirley U R the master of understatements -- a breathing, walking, talking self-styled paragon of wisdom. Some believe, some don't? Who would have ever thunk? But in your world, the difference between the two groups -- the "haves" and "have nots" are the haves and have nots themselves. Meanwhile, the Word of God teaches that God long ago took from the one pile of have nots and made from them a second pile of haves. (Check out Rom 9 some day.) The biblical view is that God makes the difference, not vile, filthy, depraved, God-hating, Christ-hating, knowledge-hating, wisdom-hating, God-reviling, world-loving, self-loving, pleasure-loving, money-loving, darkness-loving children of the devil. The elect love God because He loved them first; the elect know God because he knew them first; the elect became sons and daughters of God because he not only initiated the work of salvation but will see it through to its completion.

Go pedal your man-exalting, humanistic theology somewhere else.

I love God because He has proved Himself loveable. So, I believe that makes me one of the called and chosen/elect too. Even if we disagree on whether God loves the rest of humanity as much as he loves me.

 

[PaulThomson]

Is it just me or is everyone else unable to use the bold and underline features lately?

They are working for me fine. See #9931 above.

 

[rogerg]

But we must contribute a small amount of our own faith to initiate the new birth, just as the baby need s to contribute a small amount of a specific protein to initiate the birth.

[Rom 5:15 KJV] 15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 5:15 ESV] 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

[Rom 5:15 NIV] 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

 

[rogerg]

Is it just me or is everyone else unable to use the bold and underline features lately?

Yes, I had the same problem for quite some time. A fix for it was disseminated several months ago which worked perfectly.
Unfortunately, I am unable to find the instructions for it now, but if you contact the administrators, I'm
sure, they'll be able to help you. In the meantime, I'll keep looking for it, unless of course, it is my posts you have
in mind to 'x', thumbs down, or other, in which case, no, there's no fix, and you're stuck with it.

 

[GWH]

[Rom 5:15 KJV] 15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 5:15 ESV] 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

[Rom 5:15 NIV] 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

Thanks Paul and Roger, I will contact the administrators.