The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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Sadly, you make a false accusation, but I will not call it a lie unless you repeat it after reading what I have posted several times recently:
The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time. The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime. A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”
There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time. The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime. A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”
There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
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What works do you think one needs to do to be conditionally sanctified?
Do you think being conditionally sanctified is the same as or different than being saved as in: were saved - are being saved - will be saved - which is the language of the Text?
When Paul commands Christians to ketergazomai their salvation with fear and trembling, what is he talking about in regard to "salvation" and why didn't he say, "your sanctification"?
Is salvation a process or is it not?
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It's actually a little more nuanced than that.
The first part is correct...we cannot effectuate salvation. Salvation is in the purview of God. But so is our sanctification. We don't conform ourselves to the image of Christ; God does...God is at work in us, willing and doing of His good pleasure...Philippians 2:13.
This doesn't mean we aren't involved in the process. We are to work out what God is working in...Philippians 2:12.
Another example is fruit. We don't produce the fruit of the Spirit, but it should be apparent and on display with Christians.
Another aspect worth exploring is whether there are things we can do to foster the work of God in us. If so, what might these things be.
The first part is correct...we cannot effectuate salvation. Salvation is in the purview of God. But so is our sanctification. We don't conform ourselves to the image of Christ; God does...God is at work in us, willing and doing of His good pleasure...Philippians 2:13.
This doesn't mean we aren't involved in the process. We are to work out what God is working in...Philippians 2:12.
Another example is fruit. We don't produce the fruit of the Spirit, but it should be apparent and on display with Christians.
Another aspect worth exploring is whether there are things we can do to foster the work of God in us. If so, what might these things be.
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Re "I am not sure how one can understand and come into agreement with God on the deeper truths.": I am--by learning GW (MT 4:4): the TOJ (JN 13-17) and the TOP:
TOP #157: Christ gave various gifts regarding teaching God’s Word so that God’s people would grow spiritually and become mature. [EPH 4:7-15, cf. TOP #202 &255] Although salvation is by faith, becoming spiritually mature is by good works or continuing to cooperate with the loving Spirit of God (cf. 2:10).
TOP #202: Repentance or conversion should be followed by learning more of God’s Word (LGW) in order to avoid being deceived by atheist philosophy. [COL 2:7-8, cf. TOP #255]. This truth, called discipleship or sanctification, is akin to TOP #155&157. The part of GW that is necessary to believe for salvation is the Gospel (which may be called the kerygma or preaching), and the additional learning that needs to occur for spiritual maturation is the “all truth” in JN 16:13 and the “all things/everything” in MT 28:20 (which may be called the didache or teaching).
TOP #255: By learning Scripture Christians may be wise regarding correct doctrine, rebuking and righteousness, becoming equipped for doing good works. [2TM 3:14-17&4:5] This a significant nuance or elaboration of TOP #157 & 202. Paul applies it by charging Timothy with preaching God’s Word, correcting false doctrine, rebuking sin and encouraging persevering faith.
TOP #157: Christ gave various gifts regarding teaching God’s Word so that God’s people would grow spiritually and become mature. [EPH 4:7-15, cf. TOP #202 &255] Although salvation is by faith, becoming spiritually mature is by good works or continuing to cooperate with the loving Spirit of God (cf. 2:10).
TOP #202: Repentance or conversion should be followed by learning more of God’s Word (LGW) in order to avoid being deceived by atheist philosophy. [COL 2:7-8, cf. TOP #255]. This truth, called discipleship or sanctification, is akin to TOP #155&157. The part of GW that is necessary to believe for salvation is the Gospel (which may be called the kerygma or preaching), and the additional learning that needs to occur for spiritual maturation is the “all truth” in JN 16:13 and the “all things/everything” in MT 28:20 (which may be called the didache or teaching).
TOP #255: By learning Scripture Christians may be wise regarding correct doctrine, rebuking and righteousness, becoming equipped for doing good works. [2TM 3:14-17&4:5] This a significant nuance or elaboration of TOP #157 & 202. Paul applies it by charging Timothy with preaching God’s Word, correcting false doctrine, rebuking sin and encouraging persevering faith.
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If they Hold the Key to salvation.....they should answer the question with Joy and Give us every detail!
How many works, what type of works. A detailed list. And if they have the key, everyone of them should have the EXACT same answer.
Salvation isn't a subjective "he said, she said." It is precise and ONE way.
How many works, what type of works. A detailed list. And if they have the key, everyone of them should have the EXACT same answer.
Salvation isn't a subjective "he said, she said." It is precise and ONE way.
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Thanks! What's interesting to me is that I do see Scripture teaching Jesus' assurance of eternal life, but the OSAS systematic interpretations of Scripture are wanting, and I came to the conclusion in focused studies on the matter that there is a lack of understanding about Biblical Faith and about Salvation terminology involved.
Then the constant outcries of "works salvation" and all the typical charges like we see here that those who don't agree with their systematic approach have to feel like they're doing something is nonsense.
I've been around this for a long time and was intensely taught OSAS. Studies that brought me to where I am now have shown me it's just not a good system of interpretation.
Then the constant outcries of "works salvation" and all the typical charges like we see here that those who don't agree with their systematic approach have to feel like they're doing something is nonsense.
I've been around this for a long time and was intensely taught OSAS. Studies that brought me to where I am now have shown me it's just not a good system of interpretation.
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I will answer, if I may:
Although learning any specific part of the didache or doing a specific work such as confessing or being baptized in water is not God's requirement for salvation, a person who does not “hunger and thirst for righteousness” (MT 5:6) or want to learn “every word that comes from the mouth of God” (MT 4:4) fails the self-examination Paul commanded (2CR 13:5) and Jesus implied.
If we truly believe in Jesus as Christ, the One who represents God the Father, then we will also accept Him as Lord (LK 2:11). When we truly accept Jesus as Lord, we will want to please Him by doing His will (MT 7:21, EPH 5:8-10). Learning the manifold teachings or doctrines describing God’s moral will takes a lifetime. Thus, the need for perseverance/loyalty/remaining faithful, which is as easy or simple as an act of faith.
Paul taught the importance of continuing to learn God’s Word (LGW) in 2TM 3:14-17, saying “Continue in what you have learned and have been convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Another passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
Although learning any specific part of the didache or doing a specific work such as confessing or being baptized in water is not God's requirement for salvation, a person who does not “hunger and thirst for righteousness” (MT 5:6) or want to learn “every word that comes from the mouth of God” (MT 4:4) fails the self-examination Paul commanded (2CR 13:5) and Jesus implied.
If we truly believe in Jesus as Christ, the One who represents God the Father, then we will also accept Him as Lord (LK 2:11). When we truly accept Jesus as Lord, we will want to please Him by doing His will (MT 7:21, EPH 5:8-10). Learning the manifold teachings or doctrines describing God’s moral will takes a lifetime. Thus, the need for perseverance/loyalty/remaining faithful, which is as easy or simple as an act of faith.
Paul taught the importance of continuing to learn God’s Word (LGW) in 2TM 3:14-17, saying “Continue in what you have learned and have been convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Another passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.