The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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The Gospel is a big subject with extensive scope like the parts of Salvation you presented a few posts back.
Heb5:9 is in the context of Jesus learning obedience through all He suffered to completion/perfection. As Heb continues the will quickly get into growthy from infancy to maturity and will rebuke those who are not growing as they should.
The context is much greater than initially receiving Him.
Entrance is faith-obedience, growth is faith-obedience + works until the end.
Heb5:9 is in the context of Jesus learning obedience through all He suffered to completion/perfection. As Heb continues the will quickly get into growthy from infancy to maturity and will rebuke those who are not growing as they should.
The context is much greater than initially receiving Him.
Entrance is faith-obedience, growth is faith-obedience + works until the end.
OK.
You've changed "accomplish" to "achieve" so I'll work with this: Achieve: to succeed at reaching or accomplishing (a goal, result, etc.) especially through effort
I think God's Salvation Plan is absolutely secure and nobody or anything other than God can change it, so your question doesn't make sense to me.
Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected as part of God's Salvation Plan to accomplish several things within God's Salvation Plan.
Within God's Salvation Plan for His Children, we were saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. There are several goals within the Salvation Process per God's Salvation Plan that we work with God to achieve/accomplish.
You've changed "accomplish" to "achieve" so I'll work with this: Achieve: to succeed at reaching or accomplishing (a goal, result, etc.) especially through effort
I think God's Salvation Plan is absolutely secure and nobody or anything other than God can change it, so your question doesn't make sense to me.
Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected as part of God's Salvation Plan to accomplish several things within God's Salvation Plan.
Within God's Salvation Plan for His Children, we were saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. There are several goals within the Salvation Process per God's Salvation Plan that we work with God to achieve/accomplish.
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I've already answered this. Salvation takes place in a moment in time; when faith is birthed in an individual by the word of God and the Spirit of God. In this activity of God, an individual is indwelt by the Spirit who allows hearing and circumcises the heart. This activity of God precedes faith and is the impetus for it. Out of this spiritual birth comes a whole variety of responses that were not present before. You find this activity of God in Acts 2:37. Peter has preached a sermon...the word of God. For 3,000, they heard and understood, were pricked in their hearts...spiritual circumcision...and said...what shall we do? They obviously heard the message and believed it. Faith was birthed. They were saved. In faith, they consented to repent and be baptized...fruits meet for repentance lacking in the rest of the crowd. Fruit also missing in the Pharisees at John's baptism. They didn't have faith.
Spiritual birth has many similarities to natural birth. We can explore these if you like. It will help explain how salvation in sanctification continues. After that, we can look at how the consummation of our salvation...when the promised glorified body is given and the eternal state is ushered in.
Spiritual birth has many similarities to natural birth. We can explore these if you like. It will help explain how salvation in sanctification continues. After that, we can look at how the consummation of our salvation...when the promised glorified body is given and the eternal state is ushered in.
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If the English were all that clear to you without considering all the hermeneutical rules for interpretation, yes, some statements in verses ripped from their contexts SEEM to prove what one WANTS to believe. The anti-OSAS gang are works-based slavationists, and I don't need to delve into the Greek or Hebrew for that fact. If it requires effort on our part to retain salvation, then it also requires works to acquire it. To say otherwise is counter-intuitive, because IF salvation were indeed acquired by works of our effort, then that would explain the weakness in the ability to hold it.
Oh, and trying to lay down the false foundation of our salvation being a co-effort as if that were a matter of working WITH God for our salvation, that's just another of the red herring, straw man dodges in an attempt to get out from under the massive, overpowering weight of falsehood behind the loss of salvation belief.
The hypocrisy behind the loss of salvation belief is easily exposed:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dmlv7DrvMbc?feature=share
MM
Oh, and trying to lay down the false foundation of our salvation being a co-effort as if that were a matter of working WITH God for our salvation, that's just another of the red herring, straw man dodges in an attempt to get out from under the massive, overpowering weight of falsehood behind the loss of salvation belief.
The hypocrisy behind the loss of salvation belief is easily exposed:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dmlv7DrvMbc?feature=share
MM
Oh, there very much is indeed a problem for saying that. A big problem. It actually proves OSAS (the impossibility of apostasy) to be totally false, past, present and future. And gives it absolutely no security. The only reason people who believe in OSAS say “never truly saved”…is because they have to say that…when they discover someone who they knew to be a Christian departed from the faith…instead of believing the truth..they will simply say “well, he/she was just never saved to begin with.”
If they got saved biblically, they were saved, yet when they depart, they were never saved…that makes no sense. The sad reality in OSAS is the one who was said to be saved can depart from the faith and prove he/she was never saved in the first place. To be consistent, no one who believes in OSAS would say anyone is saved.
If they got saved biblically, they were saved, yet when they depart, they were never saved…that makes no sense. The sad reality in OSAS is the one who was said to be saved can depart from the faith and prove he/she was never saved in the first place. To be consistent, no one who believes in OSAS would say anyone is saved.
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I think people condemn the OSAS doctrine too much. Because Jesus told us,only those the Father leads to him can come to Jesus and be Saved.
And Jesus said,of all those whom his Father gives him he will lose none and they shall nevertheless be cast out.
While there is odd opposition to OSAS for whatever reason,Jesus says the same thing in his ministry.
Once we are saved we will never be lost or cast out.
Maybe if we stop angrily charging against some man's doctrine we will maybe see what is its truth behind that doctrine. And that is the teaching of Jesus.
Don't let contempt for a man blind us to Christ.
And Jesus said,of all those whom his Father gives him he will lose none and they shall nevertheless be cast out.
While there is odd opposition to OSAS for whatever reason,Jesus says the same thing in his ministry.
Once we are saved we will never be lost or cast out.
Maybe if we stop angrily charging against some man's doctrine we will maybe see what is its truth behind that doctrine. And that is the teaching of Jesus.
Don't let contempt for a man blind us to Christ.
“If our salvation is not entirely Gods will then Gods plan of salvation for the world could have failed. “
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:3-4
his Will is that all people are saved that’s why he sent the gospel to us
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16
Gods Will is that we all repent and believe the gospel and be saved so he’s being patient with us giving us time to repent so we don’t perish so he told us the truth
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:3 KJV
Its not his Will that anyone perish but that all come to repentance
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
God doesn’t force us to repent and believe he calls us to repent and believe and promises salvation to sinners who do …..then we either respond or we don’t .
mostly it’s people who think they don’t need repentance and forgiveness who reject the gospel though that’s what the doctrine is all about
he preached the gospel and sent it to all people for salvation
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
Romans 1:16-17 KJV
Gods Will sent Jesus to the cross to die for the worlds sin offering salvation to everyone the choice is ours now who hear the gospel
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:3-4
his Will is that all people are saved that’s why he sent the gospel to us
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16
Gods Will is that we all repent and believe the gospel and be saved so he’s being patient with us giving us time to repent so we don’t perish so he told us the truth
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:3 KJV
Its not his Will that anyone perish but that all come to repentance
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
God doesn’t force us to repent and believe he calls us to repent and believe and promises salvation to sinners who do …..then we either respond or we don’t .
mostly it’s people who think they don’t need repentance and forgiveness who reject the gospel though that’s what the doctrine is all about
he preached the gospel and sent it to all people for salvation
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
Romans 1:16-17 KJV
Gods Will sent Jesus to the cross to die for the worlds sin offering salvation to everyone the choice is ours now who hear the gospel
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Please spare us the theatrics of straw men arguments. What's the impossibility of apostasy? Your claim begs the question: What about the element of the new birth...in becoming a new creation? How many TRULY born again people do you know who have apostatized? Why is apostasy even a question at all in this conversation? Is it so common that it's a concern to you? Come on, give us something of substance here.
Tell me: How does one become UNBORN again? Where is that concept even hinted at in scripture. How does ine become UNSEALED by Holy Spirit? Where is that even hinted at in scripture? Do you believe in some god whose spirit is unable to SEAL with a power that would keep that god's son from declaring that there are powers that can snatch them from his hand? I recommend against following such a god. The God of the Bible said that those who He saves are SEALED with His Holy Spirit, and that His only begotten Son said that there is no power that snatch even one from His Hand.
So, which is it? Do you stand with the Bible or with what your false teaching pastor and teachers taught you, because the word of God said to let ALL men be liars, but God be true. We don't need men to teach us, for we have Holy Spirit who taches us ALL things, unless you're also going to say that John was a false teacher like your pastor...oh, and let's not forget that we should not believe what John said in the clarity of the English within our Bibles, and that I am therefore allegedly misrepresenting what he was saying. That should be a rich discussion...
Remember the strength behind declaring other's beliefs to be false, because they can also come back with that same strength so long as you have the stomach to back your words.
Now, can we drop this down to a discussion, or are we going to continue with the harangue about falsehoods in other's beliefs? I prefer to ask questions of you rather than to banter and attack with labels and high-mindedness.
MM
Tell me: How does one become UNBORN again? Where is that concept even hinted at in scripture. How does ine become UNSEALED by Holy Spirit? Where is that even hinted at in scripture? Do you believe in some god whose spirit is unable to SEAL with a power that would keep that god's son from declaring that there are powers that can snatch them from his hand? I recommend against following such a god. The God of the Bible said that those who He saves are SEALED with His Holy Spirit, and that His only begotten Son said that there is no power that snatch even one from His Hand.
So, which is it? Do you stand with the Bible or with what your false teaching pastor and teachers taught you, because the word of God said to let ALL men be liars, but God be true. We don't need men to teach us, for we have Holy Spirit who taches us ALL things, unless you're also going to say that John was a false teacher like your pastor...oh, and let's not forget that we should not believe what John said in the clarity of the English within our Bibles, and that I am therefore allegedly misrepresenting what he was saying. That should be a rich discussion...
Remember the strength behind declaring other's beliefs to be false, because they can also come back with that same strength so long as you have the stomach to back your words.
Now, can we drop this down to a discussion, or are we going to continue with the harangue about falsehoods in other's beliefs? I prefer to ask questions of you rather than to banter and attack with labels and high-mindedness.
MM