Which works justify?

[studier]

I'll answer your question, though. But in it's current estate, can you clarify...optional for what? Salvation? Or as a result of salvation?

Any way you'd like to answer. My preference would be that you answer both.

 

[studier]

Yea I wish more people would use scriptural support for what they are saying I think it helps for those who care what the Bible actually says

Forgive me, but I've learned that @Cameron143 seems to like to speak more in generalities.

If you see anything you'd like me to go to Scripture for, please let me know.

 

[studier]

So when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works from the law of Moses

I ultimately agree with you as I understand you and use 1Tim 1:8... and 2Tim3:16 in addition to your quoted verses re: the first two greatest commandments.

2 Timothy 1:9

Good reference. When was this salvation effected?

 

[Cameron143]

Any way you'd like to answer. My preference would be that you answer both.

Sure. Obedience doesn't maintain our salvation. Positionally, we are saved and placed into relationship with God when the Spirit places us into Christ. But obedience will always attend such a relationship because God is conforming us into the image of Christ. That's what Philippians 2:13 is all about. We find this exemplified in Hebrews 12 and the chastening hand of God to bring about obedience in us. But notice this chastisement is for His sons, and its purpose is not the to determine relationship. Sonship is already a given in that chastening is only given to those who are sons.

Now will answer my question?

 

[Believer08]

@studier, I agree…faith and obedience cannot be separated. Just like faith and works..they go had in glove. A good biblical example is Naaman in 2 Kings 5.

One is righteous who does righteousness (1 Jn. 3:7). Since all of God’s commands are righteousness (Psalms 119:172), then one is righteous before God when he practices what God instructs him to do. His life is a pattern of ongoing righteous living.
— Roger D. Campbell

Believing is something we ourselves do (Acts 16:30-31). When the Jews asked Peter what shall we do, he said to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:37-38). Those things would be obedience to the authority of Christ (Mt. 28:18).

People want to separate faith from and obedience, and that’s impossible.

 

[studier]

People want to separate faith from and obedience, and that’s impossible.

Agree. Then read Luke17:1-10 when His apostles try to make an excuse that they need more faith to obey.

 

[mailmandan]

Good reference. When was this salvation effected?

Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8.

 

[studier]

Sure. Obedience doesn't maintain our salvation. Positionally, we are saved and placed into relationship with God when the Spirit places us into Christ. But obedience will always attend such a relationship because God is conforming us into the image of Christ. That's what Philippians 2:13 is all about. We find this exemplified in Hebrews 12 and the chastening hand of God to bring about obedience in us. But notice this chastisement is for His sons, and its purpose is not the to determine relationship. Sonship is already a given in that chastening is only given to those who are sons.

Now will answer my question?

We're in the process of answering your question.

Is Biblical Faith important to our entrance into Salvation?

Is abiding in Biblical Faith important to our being saved (progressive sanctification to accommodate you)?

 

[studier]

Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8.

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, (2 Tim. 1:8-9 NKJ)

How about this part?

 

[Johnjunior]

That's it? How do I perform this with all my heart? What is worship? Singing? Sacrifice? Giving? How much?

What you do to worship? Lay it all out for me.

Dude, I keep the 10 commandments, as I was commanded to. Do I fall short sometimes, yes I do. Just like Abraham.
Genesis 12: 11 - 13, 17 - 20
11 And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:

12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.

13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

17 And the Lord plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

18 And Pharaoh called Abram and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?

19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.

20 And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had

These guys clearly knew thou shalt not bear false witness and don't commit adultery. Abraham lied about his wife and got pharaoh in trouble. It occurred again in Genesis 20. I am an educator by occupation, and I teach Math. I always loved watching students try even when they are clearly horrible at math rather than watch them nothing and expect me to help them. I even call some of them good students when they are constantly failing math. GOD wants that from his children make an attempt to keep the 10 no one asked you to keep 10,000 laws. Solomon wrote that keeping the law is our whole duty. You expect to willingfully break GOD's laws and expect me to be please with that? I posted scripture time and time again when Jesus said do it. Which is why I asked you do you want me to outline how you keep each commandment?
Genesis 26: 2 - 5
2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

See GOD is telling Isaac that Abraham kept his commandments but I showed an example where Abraham fell short, we have all fallen short of the glory of GOD which is why we need Jesus. You told me you do keep the commandments which meant you lied. You don't even bother trying and the book said you are lying and the truth in you. I didn't say that the bible did.

 

[Johnjunior]

We do follow commandments because we have already been justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Not to get saved. Not that if don't follow the commands we aren't saved.

Freed by the freedom giver to give back to Him.

Justified so I am free to give just works back to Him.

Our following commands goes up and down like a yo yo. Israel is a prime example.

So are you saying you keep the Sabbath day?

 

[Cameron143]

We're in the process of answering your question.

Is Biblical Faith important to our entrance into Salvation?

Is abiding in Biblical Faith important to our being saved (progressive sanctification to accommodate you)?

We can walk and chew gum at the same time. Do you not find it the least disingenuous on your part to ask me to answer your questions while you refuse to answer mine?

I wouldn't word this as you have, but being saved through faith is necessary to salvation, and exercising faith is how we manifest what we believe. Sanctification requires a continual stream of truth to believe in order to exercise.

Now will you answer: is obedience necessary to maintain your salvation?

 

[Cameron143]

Dude, I keep the 10 commandments, as I was commanded to. Do I fall short sometimes, yes I do. Just like Abraham.
Genesis 12: 11 - 13, 17 - 20
11 And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:

12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.

13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

17 And the Lord plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

18 And Pharaoh called Abram and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?

19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.

20 And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had

These guys clearly knew thou shalt not bear false witness and don't commit adultery. Abraham lied about his wife and got pharaoh in trouble. It occurred again in Genesis 20. I am an educator by occupation, and I teach Math. I always loved watching students try even when they are clearly horrible at math rather than watch them nothing and expect me to help them. I even call some of them good students when they are constantly failing math. GOD wants that from his children make an attempt to keep the 10 no one asked you to keep 10,000 laws. Solomon wrote that keeping the law is our whole duty. You expect to willingfully break GOD's laws and expect me to be please with that? I posted scripture time and time again when Jesus said do it. Which is why I asked you do you want me to outline how you keep each commandment?
Genesis 26: 2 - 5
2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

See GOD is telling Isaac that Abraham kept his commandments but I showed an example where Abraham fell short, we have all fallen short of the glory of GOD which is why we need Jesus. You told me you do keep the commandments which meant you lied. You don't even bother trying and the book said you are lying and the truth in you. I didn't say that the bible did.

Did they know? Then why did Jesus have to correct their understanding in Matthew 5? Did they know that adultery included thoughts? Did they know that murder included their words?

Can you go back and answer the questions I asked in my last post concerning the 1st commandment please?

 

[mailmandan]

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, (2 Tim. 1:8-9 NKJ)

How about this part?

God is omniscient.

 

[Johnjunior]

Abraham was called by God and he “obeyed” (Heb. 11:8). Abraham was 75 years old (Gen. 12:4). In Genesis 12:6-7, Abraham built an altar to worship God. In Genesis 12:8, he moved to the mountain and built another altar to call on the Lord. After spending time in Egypt, in Genesis 13:4, Abraham came back to the altar and called on the name of the Lord. After the slaughter of the kings in chapter 14, he gave a tithe to Melchizedek and was blessed (14:18-20). Chapter 15 begins with God telling Abraham, “I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward” (15:1), and then promising him a son and descendants (15:2-5). Abraham’s faith had been obedient for many years. (He’s 86 years old in 16:16.) The verse often quoted to prove “faith only” actually is in the context of a book (Romans) of faith-filled obedience and a man (Abraham) of many years of faith-filled obedience.

It’s interesting that James also quotes Genesis 15:6 and mentioned the scripture was fulfilled in James 2 verse 23 “And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God”,

Notice the word “fulfilled” that James uses. He also says, “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only” (verse 24). Does he say these verses before or after he mentions about Abraham offering Isaac?

James also alludes to how “by works” Abraham’s “was faith made perfect?” (Verse 22), the greatest being his offering of his beloved son of promise, Isaac, upon an altar as a sacrifice in obedience to the command of God (verse 21; cf. Genesis 22:1-18). He thus was the friend of God (verse 23).

Well James was using an example. Some men were even called perfect in the bible.
Genesis 6: 8 - 12 and Job 1: 1 but why were they perfect?
Psalms 19: 7 - 8
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

They were described as perfect because they walked in GOD's royal law as best as they could. So when GOD showed up to Abraham and told him walk before him and be perfect he was simply telling Abraham to walk in his commandments, that's why these men had such great faith. Too many people dodging that simple fact. That's why Paul wrote yea we establish the law because we going to need them serve Jesus.

Psalms 119: 172
172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

 

[Johnjunior]

Did they know? Then why did Jesus have to correct their understanding in Matthew 5? Did they know that adultery included thoughts? Did they know that murder included their words?

Can you go back and answer the questions I asked in my last post concerning the 1st commandment please?

In Matthew 5 Jesus said this:
Matthew 5: 18 - 20
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So, is heaven and earth still here? Obviously yes so GOD's ten commandments are still in full force. The put the blood of bulls and goats on the veil of temple not the 10 commandments. Least in the kingdom of heaven means you are heading to the lake of fire. So I really hope you are not teaching against Jesus 10 commandments because they are his.

Also Jesus double down on the royal law when he came, now if you hate your enemy you are a murderer. Which is why he told you to love them. I already answered your question, you are being intentionally vague, and you are doing that because you don't keep the commandments which is why I asked you straight out do you keep them. You said yes.

 

[Cameron143]

In Matthew 5 Jesus said this:
Matthew 5: 18 - 20
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So, is heaven and earth still here? Obviously yes so GOD's ten commandments are still in full force. The put the blood of bulls and goats on the veil of temple not the 10 commandments. Least in the kingdom of heaven means you are heading to the lake of fire. So I really hope you are not teaching against Jesus 10 commandments because they are his.

Also Jesus double down on the royal law when he came, now if you hate your enemy you are a murderer. Which is why he told you to love them. I already answered your question, you are being intentionally vague, and you are doing that because you don't keep the commandments which is why I asked you straight out do you keep them. You said yes.

How does any of this relate to the questions I've asked or the comments I made?

 

[TMS]

Which works justify?

None..... because it only takes one sin and we are condemned to eternal death.
All have sinned so we are all condemned to death

No amount of good works can undo the sins we have committed..

Jesus is our only hope
By FAITH in Jesus we can be forgiven and redeemed, we are Justified by faith alone.

But Jesus can choose who He will justify and who He will not justify.
This is called the judgement..

True faith will result in a changed heart and a changed life, a life that is obedient and follows the Spirit, works that are after the Spirit are a result of true faith.

So works are important... not to justify but to show our faith.

 

[Believer08]

No amount of good works can undo the sins we have committed..

Agreed…and that’s one of the reasons I know the works that James speaks of being justified by aren’t good works in the sense of meritorious good deeds.

 

[studier]

I wouldn't word this as you have, but being saved through faith is necessary to salvation, and exercising faith is how we manifest what we believe. Sanctification requires a continual stream of truth to believe in order to exercise.

Expected that you wouldn't.

Thanks Cameron.