Which works justify?

[mailmandan]

What I’m saying is it wasn’t works of their own devising that justified them, as no works of our own ingenuity can justify. So, those works that justified them had to be centered on the will of God by faith. Their faith worked (obeyed) in submitting to the grace of God that provided them the way to be justified.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified (accounted as righteous) by faith, (and works? NO, simply faith) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith (and works? NO, simply faith) into this grace in which we stand and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[LifelongLearner]

reconciled by the blood as if never sinned
Col 1:21-23, I stand in thanksgiving and praise to Daddy, PaPa, Father by Son's done work
Not saved by the death, only reconciled. That had to get done first, before any new Life came in from Daddy's Holy Spirit to live in and through people. Jesus, had to go to a willing death once for us all to be reconciled, before any new life, could ever get given, and only from Father, this is done, through Son, once for us all. All are reconciled, not all yet are saved.
The risen Life saves, as Father gives to those that believe Daddy, Papa, Father by the done work of the willing death, then proof of the death 3 days in Spirit Prison, then the resurrection, no more flesh work can save anyone else not even self (Romans 8:1-3) it is finished for anymore self work to get done from anyone.
Saved by the risen life given from Father to all that are sincere in belief to what is done for them to be born again by PaPa, Daddy, Father of Son for them
Whoever is sincere, Father, Daddy, PaPa gives new life to these and each know if this is true or not in themselves, no one else. Yes, we can tell and hear, and judge others, forgetting about self in our way doing judging on others, thinking we know, and end up being a modern day Pharisee. Yet I hear this as well, be wise and remain harmless, wow, woe is me remain harmless, but Lord I know those over there are not doin g it right. Love all, did I the Lord stutter?
You who are doing so much, working so hard, doing your best like a Mother Teresa, who wrote her letter of insecurity. Who worked hard and did much in love, that turned out from her to be of words to get in and not of love only, self work, and I adore this from people to help others, in their time of need. The Motive, and I see She is in heaven, just was unsure because of the flesh body fighting her that was not her, God carried on the work in her, her motive was to help and do, yet she admitted it was for her to assure here getting in.
The ? in her insecurity was she did so much and was not sure if saved as the disciples had that go through them too, in Matthew 19 when they asked Jesus who then can be saved? Watching that rich man walk away.
It is impossible for man to get saved, be saved
Yet by God his Father, now our Father in the risen Son for us is the one that saves us, at least me this is done by Son for me and all the world of people to choose this also or not. It is to be themselves and God to choose. That is between God and each person personally in it all (Romans 8) Tells me I know about me, you know about you, and every person knows the same about themselves, God knows, that I see to stand in trust to that truth only, to me at least.
Cameron, I hope for us all to believe God sincerely and not use God for any self gain in harming anyone else. Born again is not able to harm others. Does not mean one does not get those feelings to do so. It means, when the rubber hits the road and it is in front of you to do back to those that have harmed you, or others, you cannot harm back. Then you know by being in that same love God is with us all, by Son going willingly to that cross to save us, yet the death had to happen first in reconciliation to all (2 Cor 5:16-20), thank you
If you or any one else are still harming others, and know this in you over wanting to have anything here on earth, then you might want to re-think that over and ask are you, me and others doing that are we in the sin of death, known as unbelief to God, using God to get stuff here and now, sitting in Moses's seat, getting praise from people?
Each person gets to decide that for themselves, between God and themselves personally Thanks
God loves us all, otherwise Son would not have gone to that cross willingly ever or would god have done that otherwise?
We each get to decide, in thanksgiving and praise, being content in all things good or bad that happens here for now, at least me

"forgetting about self in our way doing judging on others, thinking we know, and end up being a modern day Pharisee"

God's Blessings with love and hugs from me dear friend, really think you have a gorgeous spiritual awareness/loveliness. Sadly, i too often see comments which remind me of pharisees rather than believers.

 

[homwardbound]

Your comments often give me that lightbulb moment, by defining what i'm seeking an answer too. It still startles me, love and blessings for doing it again

praising God, thank you as we all continue in belief to see through that veil that was ripped in two, when he gave up his flesh for us to be new in his risen live for us to just love all in Father, Daddy's, Papa's Spirit and Truth, the Holy Spirit given us to love all. The hard part to love all is those that have done us wrong or even doing us wrong. Only Daddy can do that, at least is and has been doing that through me and I get floored every time understanding Luke 21:14-15 that only Father reveals to his children in his mysterious ways. The same as from Genesis 3:15-16 when he predicted the Son to come to save us in his Son's resurrected life for us all to choose to believe that or not, he is risen where new life is given, death reconciled all first as forgiven.
Believe God, receive new from God, and make mistakes, everyone does and has, then seek to learn from them from God Father in Spirit and Truth only, not from others as if others got it, as has been being done since day one in the fall of the first Adam. Each having the knowledge of right and wrong, has caused wars, rumors of wars, as Father continues in mercy for us all to see to let go of thinking we know better than others, at least me
I see the Bible as a Gigantic Love letter from God to us all, that is where the Love of God (1 Cor 13:4-7) began in me. And only God can impute this to each person personally first, seeing verses 1-3 been there done that and it means squat now to me. Many are there trying, yet Father is waiting patiently for each of us to learn new in his love once for us all given by son to us all
How can anyone love anyone in truth, without taking away anyone's free will?
God did that by Son once for us all
God just loves us all y'all

 

[studier]

GES?

Not important.

Before men and God.

God's doing the justifying, correct?

Is there some importance re: before men?

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/dikaioo.html - See post #246.

Thanks. Looks like a combining of at least 2-3 resources

Dikaioo Definition
NAS Word Usage - Total: 39

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

If we use #2 as you suggest, then it sounds active, as if Abraham is doing the justifying, but in James2:24 it's passive. Is God justifying Abraham to present the works evidence of his faith to someone? You're saying to men?

How does James pick up this concept of justification by works?

Believers are accounted as righteous by faith (Romans 4:2-6) and shown to be righteous by works. (James 2:21, 24)

Shown to God and to men because of the interlocuter in 2:18? God justifies a believer based upon faith + works in order to show men what faith is? How do men know God justified a man's work?

Abraham was before the law of Moses and Paul does not merely limit works to specific works of the law yet adherence to the law or any human effort through deeds cannot merit salvation. The saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) argument is bogus.

Agree re: Abraham's time.

Do you see Rom4 carrying on the context of works of law from Rom3?

Do you see Eph2:9 speaking of works of law or just human works in general?

I don't know why you specify "these" and "those" but I understand your parentheticals. The "saved by" is more meaningful to me.

Are "good works" a part of our salvation, but in some way immaterial or optional to our salvation?

 

[mailmandan]

Works of our own righteousness does not justify (Titus 3:5).

Works of righteousness are works done in righteousness and are not merely of our own righteousness.

Good works do not justify (2 Tim. 1:9).

We are not accounted as righteous by good works, (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8-10) but we are shown to be righteous by good works. (James 2:21, 24) In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" Now to give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a good work.

Works of the flesh do not justify (Gal. 5:19-21). Works of the law do not justify (Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:9).

You seem to be getting carried away and are splitting hairs on works.

Yet there are a certain kind of works that do justify (Jms. 2:21-25). Since good works, works of our own righteousness, works of the flesh, or of the law do not justify, then there must be a kind that do. That’s the point that James is making.

Are these works that James is describing (clothing and feeding the poor) good works or bad works? Are they works done in righteousness by believers or are they done in unrighteousness by believers? Was Abraham already accounted as righteous by faith in Genesis 15:6 many years before he offered up Isaac on the alter in Genesis 22 or was, he still considered unrighteous in Genesis 22 until after he performed that work?

Since James said Abraham and Rahab were justified by works, then the only way one can be considered justified in the sense of just-if-ied never sinned, would have to be of grace, as grace through faith (an obedient faith, not a dead faith- Eph. 2:8; Jms. 2:17, 20), is how we are justified by grace (Rom. 3:24; Titus 3:7).

Your eisegesis culminates in salvation by works. In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs. (James 2:18)

Thus, when Abraham and Rahab had a faith that worked/obeyed in accordance with God’s will (Jms. 2:21-25), they were ultimately saved and justified by their working/obedient faith through grace via the blood of Christ (Heb. 9:15; Rom. 3:24-25), as without His blood there is no remission of sins (Heb. 9:22).

Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Believers are accounted as righteous by faith (Romans 4:2-6) and shown to be righteous by works. (James 2:21, 24)

 

[studier]

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) which is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" and are produced out of faith. (Ephesians 2:10)

This sounds like parallelism, yet your other response sound like obedience follows faith. Belief in Rom1:16 can be taken as faith alone or faith-obedience alone depending upon how Paul views Faith.

FWIW, I'm not attempting to debate with you. At this point I'm just attempting to understand your view.

 

[mailmandan]

Not important.

God's doing the justifying, correct?

Is there some importance re: before men?

Thanks. Looks like a combining of at least 2-3 resources

Dikaioo Definition
NAS Word Usage - Total: 39

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

If we use #2 as you suggest, then it sounds active, as if Abraham is doing the justifying, but in James2:24 it's passive. Is God justifying Abraham to present the works evidence of his faith to someone? You're saying to men?

How does James pick up this concept of justification by works?

Shown to God and to men because of the interlocuter in 2:18? God justifies a believer based upon faith + works in order to show men what faith is? How do men know God justified a man's work?

Agree re: Abraham's time.

Do you see Rom4 carrying on the context of works of law from Rom3?

Do you see Eph2:9 speaking of works of law or just human works in general?

I don't know why you specify "these" and "those" but I understand your parentheticals. The "saved by" is more meaningful to me.

Are "good works" a part of our salvation, but in some way immaterial or optional to our salvation?

God does the justifying and works in scripture are not merely limited to specific works of the law. Based on all of your questions you seem to be making this out to be more complicated than it really is.

We are saved FOR good works and not by good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) We are created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works that we should walk in them. It's not about optional/must or else. Good works are not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God.

 

[mailmandan]

This sounds like parallelism, yet your other response sound like obedience follows faith. Belief in Rom1:16 can be taken as faith alone or faith-obedience alone depending upon how Paul views Faith.

FWIW, I'm not attempting to debate with you. At this point I'm just attempting to understand your view.

The obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel is parralel with believing the gospel which is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow faith. We are saved by faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone.

 

[studier]

God does the justifying and works in scripture are not merely limited to specific works of the law. Based on all of your questions you seem to be making this out to be more complicated than it really is.

We are saved FOR good works and not by good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) We are created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works that we should walk in them. It's not about optional/must or else. Good works are not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God.

Maybe you've simplified this and are making some errors.

The way I read your statements, you're shifting between an active and passive voice in the justification in James. The definition you're using from the source you provided is showing an active voice in the one showing - so that says Abraham is showing/justifying, but then you're saying God is justifying.

When you answered my earlier question re: there being one or more justifications you seemed to say there are at least 2 [provided] we view the second one, which is in James, as showing [righteousness] and not being declared righteous [by God] but again, is the showing active or passive - who's doing the showing and to whom?

Re: good works, we are saved FOR good works but it's not about optional/must or else? If they're not forced or legalistic then it sounds like they are optional. Our Father is not forcing His Children to behave properly and become like His first-born Son? No offense intended, but this sounds like one of the traditions of Faith Alone - just believe (undefined) and you'll go to heaven when you die.

If we're newly created for good works, then how can good works not be required? And why couch this in language like "legalistic"?

 

[studier]

The obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel is parralel with believing the gospel which is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow faith. We are saved by faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone.

So, simply put, as I think I said before, Faith and Obedience are parallel. Is this "faith (rightly understood)"?

So then, why do you say "obedience/works"? What do you mean? Are works and obedience parallel?

I'm not going to ask you about "obedient act" at the moment because some would say this is works.

 

[mailmandan]

Maybe you've simplified this and are making some errors.

The way I read your statements, you're shifting between an active and passive voice in the justification in James. The definition you're using from the source you provided is showing an active voice in the one showing - so that says Abraham is showing/justifying, but then you're saying God is justifying.

When you answered my earlier question re: there being one or more justifications you seemed to say there are at least 2 [provided] we view the second one, which is in James, as showing [righteousness] and not being declared righteous [by God] but again, is the showing active or passive - who's doing the showing and to whom?

Re: good works, we are saved FOR good works but it's not about optional/must or else? If they're not forced or legalistic then it sounds like they are optional. Our Father is not forcing His Children to behave properly and become like His first-born Son? No offense intended, but this sounds like one of the traditions of Faith Alone - just believe (undefined) and you'll go to heaven when you die.

If we're newly created for good works, then how can good works not be required? And why couch this in language like "legalistic"?

Ultimately, God justifies us by faith and we are shown to be righteous by works before God and man. Not sure why that is so hard to understand. Forced or legalistic obedience is born out of salvation by works/works righteousness. God disciplines His children but He does not force us to obey Him. We have free will and choose to obey Him because we love Him. (Romans 5:5; 1 John 4:19)

Do you believe we are saved by grace through faith, not works, or through faith and works? What did Paul say in Ephesians 2:8,9? If you believe that we are saved by good works then how many good works do you believe must we accomplish to help save ourselves?

 

[mailmandan]

So, simply put, as I think I said before, Faith and Obedience are parallel. Is this "faith (rightly understood)"?

So then, why do you say "obedience/works"? What do you mean? Are works and obedience parallel?

I'm not going to ask you about "obedient act" at the moment because some would say this is works.

Faith is the root of salvation and obedience/works which "follow" are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

 

[studier]

Ultimately, God justifies us by faith and we are shown to be righteous by works before God and man.

So, God justifies by faith and by faith + works. Seems tough for you to acknowledge without changing to another definition and going back and forth between active and passive concepts.

This is why I see the @Believer08 input interesting. It flushes out this type of hedging.

God disciplines His children but He does not force us to obey Him

Seriously? We get a time out and can then continue our bad behavior? What's His discipline for?

I believe/submit to all of Scripture. I believe you believe that you and all of us do also. I believe you are hedging on some of your statements because you're not clear on some things like justification(s) and faith-obedience, etc.

 

[mailmandan]

So, God justifies by faith and by faith + works. Seems tough for you to acknowledge without changing to another definition and going back and forth between active and passive concepts.

This is why I see the @Believer08 input interesting. It flushes out this type of hedging.

Seriously? We get a time out and can then continue our bad behavior? What's His discipline for?

I believe/submit to all of Scripture. I believe you believe that you and all of us do also. I believe you are hedging on some of your statements because you're not clear on some things like justification(s) and faith-obedience, etc.

Allow me to sum it up for you. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[studier]

Faith is the root of salvation and obedience/works which "follow" are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

So, faith & obedience were parallel, but now obedience & works are parallel.

FWIW, if this was stated just a little differently, I'd simply agree. In the end, all of this terminology and more simply coalesce but to make things optional defeats this coalescence.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Forgive me, but I've learned that @Cameron143 seems to like to speak more in generalities.

If you see anything you'd like me to go to Scripture for, please let me know.

Um no I was just responding to someone else about what they had said

 

[studier]

Allow me to sum it up for you. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Flows with what you've said apart from your hedging in discussion. I'd change a few things based upon what I've said in those discussions. I wouldn't change anything re: merit but for the "alone" part (see below).

Re: Faith in Jesus Christ Alone, I know the gist and the historical overview of the phrase, but I don't use it:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

With Jesus our Father was never left out of the picture.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Absolutely correct. And we should all learn what God means when He uses such words.

Yes otherwise we’re repeating Israel’s mistakes and creating our own versions of what he actually said

But we’re saved by the truth

 

[homwardbound]

"forgetting about self in our way doing judging on others, thinking we know, and end up being a modern day Pharisee"

God's Blessings with love and hugs from me dear friend, really think you have a gorgeous spiritual awareness/loveliness. Sadly, i too often see comments which remind me of pharisees rather than believers.

Remembering, do as they say, yet do not do as they do, they do tell you the truth and do not do as they say to do, to anyone
Discerning this is key God gives his children to see and remain in not accusing or excusing anyone, since we deserve death as well (Romans 2:1-4)
Let the sinner be the sinner, let those that think they know, to think they know
For it is not me that shows them truth as God in the Holy Spirit does that, that began on Pentecost
An analogy Jesus used in John 3 was where the wind comes from, no one knows and where it goes next no one knows either. God Father is the Holy Spirit that led Jesus, that Jesus showed us to trust Father the Holy Spirit that came on him at water Baptism where he told John, he needed to get water Baptized by John first, to fulfill Law, after John said he needed to be Baptized by Jesus
Then we, at least me I see in Acts 1 the true Baptism was coming and began at Pentecost
Still going on presently
The work needed to get done is done by Son once for us all to choose to either believe and stand in belief and be new by God Father as all are called to be, that being the only choice left after he Jesus first fulfilled the Law of Moses for us to be thankful for this amazing gift of reconciliation, forgiveness. Then ask for the new life from Father to do it in love to Daddy, Father reveals to all who seek Father and Son as Won for them, therefore seeks this truth

John 4:24
Jesus replied, “The time is coming, ma’am, when we will no longer be concerned about whether to worship the Father here or in Jerusalem. For it’s not where we worship that counts, but how we worship—is our worship spiritual and real? Do we have the Holy Spirit’s help? For God is Spirit, and we must have his help to worship as we should. The Father wants this kind of worship from us. But you Samaritans know so little about him, worshiping blindly, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation comes to the world through the Jews.”

The times are now changed, sent to us all, Jesus as risen, gives us Love from God for us, not ever against us as others are and have been, even ourselves have done that too, have we not?

Turn to a Loving Father and ask to see truth over error over going to others that claim to know.
Have a personal relationship and share between one another in encouraging one another, knowing all have sinned and many still do the sin again over and over and do not tell the truth of that happening, yet Father in them is teaching them how to say no and these learn to say no over time. God never leaving them to see it and stand in thanksgiving and praise over remaining forgiven, by Father and Son as Won (One). When the power of sin is taken away, the pull to sin begins to disappear and does disappear over time not quitting belief to God to carry it on for you personally too.
Guess what? Whether one sins again or not, God has forgiven us all through Son for us all
That is done as in Hebrews 10:10 as in John 19:30, as in Hebrews, 8,9,10
It is a gift to respond to and not make anything more out of it, being in thanksgiving and praise over it so deeply, there is no more tine left to sin again

Living Bible

Hebrews 8:10

10 But this is the new agreement I will make with the people of Israel, says the Lord: I will write my laws in their minds so that they will know what I want them to do without my even telling them, and these laws will be in their hearts so that they will want to obey them, and I will be their God and they shall be my people.


Hebrews 8:10

Authorized (King James) Version

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

What is the Law God is talking of: The laws of Commandments or the Law of Love?

Jesus Won, and now is the new

Hebrews 7:11
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hebrews 7:19
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Which is Love forever as in 1 Cor 13:13 tells us, at least me thanks.

 

[John146]

Allow me to sum it up for you. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Thank the Lord for the faith of Jesus Christ. His faith justifies the believer.