Which works justify?

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Nov 28, 2023
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I agree with Paul that good works don’t save (2 Tim. 1:9).
Right, this refers to good works that a person invents from their own imagination, works that God did not command them to do.
This is entirely different from the good works that God has instructed believers to do according to New Testament Scripture (Which is what James 2:24-26 talks about).

For example: Preaching the gospel is a work.
Scripture compares it to the labor of farming.

To give an overall illustration:
  • The plentiful harvest or mature harvest represents hearts that are ready to receive the gospel message (John 4:35-38; Matthew 9:37-38).
  • The seed is the Word of God (Luke 8:11).
  • The act of plowing and planting the seed represents preaching the gospel, sowing the Word of God into people’s hearts (Luke 8:5, 11; 1 Corinthians 3:6; Matthew 9:37-38).
  • Watering refers to providing additional Scripture to further the gospel message.
  • Yet, it is God who gives the increase, causing the plant to grow and bringing spiritual life or the new birth (1 Corinthians 3:6-8; John 3:3-7).
  • Peter states that this seed, through God’s promise of preserving His Word, endures forever. This is how the gospel continues to be preached (1 Peter 1:23-25).

You said:
I agree with John in 1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
Yes, I see this as the Sanctification aspect of a believer’s life. This is not referring to being initially saved by God’s grace when a believer first believes the gospel message of salvation in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.


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Nov 28, 2023
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There are two aspects of salvation believers need to be concerned with.

Ephesians 2:8-9 describes a believer’s initial salvation (Which involves believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
This is the 1st aspect of salvation for a believer.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 describes the secondary aspect of a believer’s salvation.
God has chosen you to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit.
So, this secondary aspect of salvation is about living holy according to the Spirit, which involves obedience to the New Covenant.
While this secondary aspect is not the gospel, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is the call of the gospel. (Carefully read verse 14).

So yes. We are initially saved by God’s grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5). However, even God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12).


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Jan 27, 2025
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This is entirely different from the good works that God has instructed believers to do according to New Testament Scripture (Which is what James 2:24-26 talks about).
Since the good works that James’ is talking about is entirely different than those that Paul mentions in 2 Timothy 1:9, then those works that Rahab/Abraham did were not of themselves in the sense that they invented in their own imagination, so they had to be of God in order to be justified by them, right?
 
Nov 28, 2023
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Since the good works that James’ is talking about is entirely different than those that Paul mentions in 2 Timothy 1:9, then those works that Rahab/Abraham did were not of themselves in the sense that they invented in their own imagination, so they had to be of God in order to be justified by them, right?
Yes. I agree.
I am curious, though.
Do you believe that a person can be initially saved by God's grace through faith without works, but then later works of faith are required as a part of God's plan of salvation? I am just asking this because that is what I believe.


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Jan 27, 2025
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Yes. I agree.
I am curious, though.
Do you believe that a person can be initially saved by God's grace through faith without works, but then later works of faith are required as a part of God's plan of salvation? I am just asking this because that is what I believe.


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When you say without works, if you are referring to without works of our own righteousness (Titus 3:5; cf. 2 Tim. 1:9), without works of the law (Eph. 2:9; Rom. 3:27), or without works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21), then yes. One can be saved by God’s grace through faith without works of human merit, without works of the law, and of the flesh. If we could be saved by works of our own merit then we would not need Jesus. But for someone who is lost who needs salvation, the works of faith that God has given man obey to be saved in Christ would be to have belief/faith (Jn. 6:28-29), confess Jesus (as it’s something you do, Rom. 10:9-10; 1 Jn. 4:15; Mt. 10:32-33), repent and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Then, live godly (Titus 2:12)

Let’s sum it up

Faith/belief is a work (Jn. 6:29), which would mean believing and having faith in the gospel would be a work (1 Cor. 15:1-4)

Repentance is a work (Acts 26:20; Rev. 2:5)

Confessing Jesus is a work (Acts 8:37; Rom. 10:9; 1 Jn. 4:15, because it’s something you do)

Baptism is a work, but it’s a work of God (Col. 2:12).

Living for God is a having a faith that works through love (Gal. 5:6; 2 Cor. 5:14-15)

But none of these are our own works that we devised or came up with. God lovingly gave those works/commands for us. They are of Him, because He gave us them. As we obey them, we are allowing Him to work in us (Phil. 2:13), as they are His works/commands that He lovingly and graciously gave mankind to have salvation.

Humble surrender to God's will as revealed in His word shows total dependence on God and not on oneself.

A faith that works is one that is centered on doing the will of God.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
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What did Abraham and Rahab do to be said to be justified by works? Gal. 2:16 is referring to works of the law. Abraham and Rahab were not justified by those works. So what works does James say they did to be justified? They did something. What was it?
Abraham offered Isaac and Rahab received & sent out the messengers.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James 2:21 (KJV)
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? James 2:25 (KJV)
 
Jan 27, 2025
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Abraham offered Isaac and Rahab received & sent out the messengers.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James 2:21 (KJV)
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? James 2:25 (KJV)
I agree..so, were those works that justified them of their own righteousness, or they works of the flesh, or works of the law, or were they works of faith/grace that God gave by His grace so they could be justified by?
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
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I agree..so, were those works that justified them of their own righteousness, or they works of the flesh, or works of the law, or were they works of faith/grace that God gave by His grace so they could be justified by?
They were works that showed Abraham & Rahab were already just before they performed the works.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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They were works that showed Abraham & Rahab were already just before they performed the works.
According to James, those works they did justified by them. Rahab was a harlot/prostitue. She wasn’t justified before that. At least, we are not told that. Offering Isaac up on the altar fulfilled Gen. 15:6 (Jms. 2:23). Since those works justified them, then they had to be of God, in the sense that He devised, approved, revealed them, which would be by His grace. Works of faith/grace that God gave by His grace so they could be justified by.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
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According to James, those works they did justified by them. Rahab was a harlot/prostitue. She wasn’t justified before that. At least, we are not told that. Offering Isaac up on the altar fulfilled Gen. 15:6 (Jms. 2:23). Since those works justified them, then they had to be of God, in the sense that He devised, approved, revealed them, which would be by His grace. Works of faith/grace that God gave by His grace so they could be justified by.
Justify means "show to be just"; not "cause to become just". In James 2, works show that the person is just.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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James 2:23-26 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Faith works.
Faith first.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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Justify means "show to be just"; not "cause to become just". In James 2, works show that the person is just.
Justified means to be declared or made righteous in the sight of God. Abraham and Rahab were justified by works (Jms. 2:21, 24-25). Their faith led them to obey God and were justified by works.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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@JohnRH
I got that definition of justified from the Oxford Dictionary…justified—Theology declared or made righteous in the sight of God
 
Apr 7, 2014
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Justify means "show to be just"; not "cause to become just". In James 2, works show that the person is just.
Depending on the context, justified can mean "accounted as righteous" as in (Luke 18:14; Acts 13:39; Romans 3:24, 28; 4:2, 9; 5:1, 9; 8:30; Galatians 2:16, 24) or "show to be just or righteous" as in (Matthew 11:19; 12:37; Luke 7:29, 35; James 2:21, 24, 25)

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo" is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Dikaioo Meaning - Greek Lexicon | New Testament (NAS)

The error that folks make (particularly folks who promote salvation by works) is giving the term "justified" a broad brushed meaning of made or accounted as righteous.
 
Apr 7, 2014
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Justified means to be declared or made righteous in the sight of God.
The Greek word for justified has more than one meaning, depending on the context.

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo" is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Dikaioo Meaning - Greek Lexicon | New Testament (NAS)

Abraham and Rahab were justified by works (Jms. 2:21, 24-25).
Abraham and Rahab were justified "shown to be righteous" by works (fits the context) and not made or accounted as righteous by works in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6. For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Their faith led them to obey God and were justified by works.
Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, (which is the sense in which she was justified by works) just as all genuine believers show theirs. (James 2:18)

You need to understand that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
 
Sep 29, 2024
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I read the original "Brave New World". Along with Orwell's "1984" and "Animal Farm" it seems to be prophetic in a number of ways. "1984" was supposed to be a warning. Too many leaders took it as an instruction manual for 21st century government, including most supposedly democratic governments.
Personally fine being called a conspiracy theorist, think it's preferable to being an ostrich with my head buried in the sand. It seems George used his experience working at the BBC as a source for much of 1984, can see why. It was less of the bureaucratic mouthpiece it is now but it was obvious that's the direction it was going in.

Think you might like this talk from the brilliant Michael Parenti, a hero of mine:

https://odysee.com/@januszkowalskii...lass-Power-(Michael-Parenti---Berkeley,-CA):b

Sadly, he suffers from Alzheimer's now, personally sure he still has lucid moments and feels unimaginable horror at what's happening to him. Definitely a fate worse than death to me.
 
Nov 28, 2023
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Faith/belief is a work (Jn. 6:29), which would mean believing and having faith in the gospel would be a work (1 Cor. 15:1-4)
No, my friend. Belief/Faith is a work of God, and not a work of man.



This is not Calvinism by any means. Man has free will to either accept or reject God, but this happens when God illuminates the truth to a person at the right time or times in their life (Under the drawing of Christ and the conviction of the Spirit). For even Lydia’s heart was opened to understand Paul’s message. In other words, a person cannot believe without the working of God in their life to make that happen. But a person will know of the truth at the right time God chooses them to know the truth. It is up to the individual if they accept or reject the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10).

Logic dictates that a belief is not a work. I say this because you cannot use any real world example where a belief is a work. This is important because Jesus accepted the real world example or extended parable of the Canaanite woman when she said that even the dogs can eat the crumbs from the table. God is not the author of confusion. The only logical way that our believing is a work of God is if it was actually God doing the work in order for us to have the capacity to believe. It’s not that it would be a work on our part. Again telling a person you did work today by just believing will only gain you crazy looks.

Also, in real life, if you apologize to somebody, it is not considered a work (Even though it is something you do). So naturally, if you apologize to God, it also would not be considered a work.

While works of faith are later required as a part of the secondary aspect of our faith, this should not be confused with the first aspect of our initial salvation in how we are saved without works but by His grace and mercy.

There are three big places in Scripture that refutes your “Perpetual Works ALONE Salvationist“ belief here.

#1. Luke 18:9-14
#2. Romans 4:3-5
#3. Titus 3:5

On my point #1 involving Luke 18:9-14, the focus is on how the tax collector who cried out to God and sought God’s mercy and forgiveness was more justified than the Pharisee who focused on doing righteous acts. This parable is a lesson of how you need to give God the glory or His due in seeking His forgiveness and mercy over doing something that you can boast in (Ephesians 2:8-9). There really is no way to shoehorn in works to be saved in this parable. The contrast is a man seeking forgiveness with God vs. doing things for the Lord. Jesus is saying that the Tax Collector is favored here in this scenario. Meaning, this parable must be offering a truth that must fit our real world life today.

On my point #2, in Romans 4:3-5, if we are to look at the example in Genesis 15:1-6, we would see that Abraham’s belief is not an action or anything major physically that he did but it was Abraham’s belief in God’s promise that he would have an heir and that his descendants will be as the stars of Heaven.

Romans 4:9-12 says,
"Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision."

This passage above shows that circumcision was a work that followed faith, rather than something that contributed to righteousness.
Speaking of Abraham, the Scriptures continue to say, “He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.” (Romans 4:20-22). So the contrast here is Abraham believing God involving the promise (a belief / faith) vs. circumcision (which is a work). This is where your belief starts to crumble. To say that a belief is a work and then circumcision is also a work in this scenario will only cause confusion, and God is not the author of confusion.

On my point #3, Titus 3:5 says,
”Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”

So this is clearly describing when a person comes to the faith and God for the first time because they have been saved by His mercy, and washed in the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. This is identifying a specific point in time when works do not apply. We did not do anything to GET saved. We were saved by His mercy, and by the washing and regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. To squeeze in how you are saved by works in this verse is simply a denial of what this verse plainly says. It says not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, etcetera. But you see belief as a work of righteousness here that you have done and not solely by his mercy that he saved you. This means you are not giving God all the glory in being saved by his mercy and by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. You must let God’s grace reign and shine at a specific point in your life. Glorying in the fact that you did a work when you believed in God is contrary to God’s plan of salvation for your life. You must let grace reign, my friend.


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BillyBob

Active member
Dec 20, 2023
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That's pretty out of order asking for a straight yes or no Cameron, pretty sure you'd think similarly if somebody tried to shackle you.
@Cameron143 asked - Do you believe your continued obedience will help secure your salvation?
I do not believe that this question is out of order, considering the topic being discussed.
Studier's posts have indicated that he stands on the side that would answer “yes” to this question, even though he knows that the correct answer would be “NO!”. He will not answer because because, by answering, many of his posts would be proven incorrect.
The truth of the matter is that the the topic is “which-works-justify”. The correct answer is only those which were done by Christ on our behalf!

The Bible often commands us to do many things that we are incapable of doing in our fallen condition. That is why we need a Savior such as Christ.
 
Sep 29, 2024
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@Cameron143 asked - Do you believe your continued obedience will help secure your salvation?
I do not believe that this question is out of order, considering the topic being discussed.
Studier's posts have indicated that he stands on the side that would answer “yes” to this question, even though he knows that the correct answer would be “NO!”. He will not answer because because, by answering, many of his posts would be proven incorrect.
The truth of the matter is that the the topic is “which-works-justify”. The correct answer is only those which were done by Christ on our behalf!

The Bible often commands us to do many things that we are incapable of doing in our fallen condition. That is why we need a Savior such as Christ.
Don't expect you to agree but i do expect fairness. Those who want to shackle the replies of other, are usually the biggest whiners when someone tries to do it to them.

I think discussion should be on a level playing field.