The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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Agreement is good, but I see that you refuse not to use lose.
Yes, HB 6:4-6 and 15 other Scriptures seem to disagree with JN 10:27-29, so is it better to ignore the 16 or to harmonize them?
Again, being “unsnatchable” in John 10:27-29 does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Similarly, in JN 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in JN 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.
What is your way of harmonizing all of the relevant Scriptures?
Yes, HB 6:4-6 and 15 other Scriptures seem to disagree with JN 10:27-29, so is it better to ignore the 16 or to harmonize them?
Again, being “unsnatchable” in John 10:27-29 does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Similarly, in JN 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in JN 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.
What is your way of harmonizing all of the relevant Scriptures?
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I understand some have an issue with the word,lose.
However, I think that's like focusing on a single tree and thinking that tree and its appearance takes away from the image afforded the meaning of forest.
If my supervisor retracts the promotion she gives to me, I have lost that promotion. I lose the higher rate of pay,the privileges of that position,and so forth.
If I choose to resign from that new job and its greater responsibilities, I lose money. I lose the opportunity to excell to an even higher rung on that corporate ladder by my choice.
The job didn't take the promotion back. I chose to leave the position.Andbin leaving I lose what the job afforded my career and financial portfolio.
If someone insists we can choose to walk away from God's salvific gift then they must concede that
person then walks away from, loses, their salvation and all that entails.
Jesus said no one will snatch us from his hand.
However, Jesus also said, of all the father gives him he will lose none.
He will never cast us out. No one will take us from him. And he will not lose us because he will not let us return to being dead in our sins.
Which is what he would have to do if we insist we can leave him. And he will agree to undo all that he said he would never do. Which begins with, remembering our sins he said he'd remember no more. After he strips us of his seal and our eternal life so to make us dead again.
However, I think that's like focusing on a single tree and thinking that tree and its appearance takes away from the image afforded the meaning of forest.
If my supervisor retracts the promotion she gives to me, I have lost that promotion. I lose the higher rate of pay,the privileges of that position,and so forth.
If I choose to resign from that new job and its greater responsibilities, I lose money. I lose the opportunity to excell to an even higher rung on that corporate ladder by my choice.
The job didn't take the promotion back. I chose to leave the position.Andbin leaving I lose what the job afforded my career and financial portfolio.
If someone insists we can choose to walk away from God's salvific gift then they must concede that
person then walks away from, loses, their salvation and all that entails.
Jesus said no one will snatch us from his hand.
However, Jesus also said, of all the father gives him he will lose none.
He will never cast us out. No one will take us from him. And he will not lose us because he will not let us return to being dead in our sins.
Which is what he would have to do if we insist we can leave him. And he will agree to undo all that he said he would never do. Which begins with, remembering our sins he said he'd remember no more. After he strips us of his seal and our eternal life so to make us dead again.
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Jesus said we cannot be un-saved. That will not happen. Because he said his salvation is irrevocable.
I feel it isn't eternal salvation and eternal life and eternal security in him, if we in our insecurity can choose to leave.
God called whom he knew before the foundation of the world. He doesn't make mistakes. And there is nothing he cannot know.
I think we should stop trying to make God into our image. Thinking he will obey us when we say,you called me to you but I don't want to stay here. OK?
Insisting after this God will agree and hold the door on our way back into damnation.
When he loves us enough to think we are worth dying for,he's not going then agree to let us die without him.
I feel it isn't eternal salvation and eternal life and eternal security in him, if we in our insecurity can choose to leave.
God called whom he knew before the foundation of the world. He doesn't make mistakes. And there is nothing he cannot know.
I think we should stop trying to make God into our image. Thinking he will obey us when we say,you called me to you but I don't want to stay here. OK?
Insisting after this God will agree and hold the door on our way back into damnation.
When he loves us enough to think we are worth dying for,he's not going then agree to let us die without him.
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@GWH I know this was not asked to me, but here is my take on the verses that is mentioned:
John 10:27 — The sheep who follow the good shepherd (Jn 10:27, 14) will be given eternal life and will never be snatched/plucked (v28-29). That promise is for those who follow Him (v27). In Christ, there is now no condemnation to those who walk according to the Spirit (Rom. 8:1).
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
Notice the words, “follow me”
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Who are the “them”? They are the sheep who “follow me [Jesus].
Hebrews 6:4-6
These people that the Hebrew writer was writing to were enlightened with saving knowledge as Christians. They had experienced the light, and God is light (1 John 1:5).
These people were Christians.
They had shared (made partakers) of the Holy Ghost. This is probably referencing to miraculous abilities they had or that they had witnessed. It could also be referring to being a Christian by being made partakers of the Spirit by having a relationship with Him after obedience to the gospel.
Elsewhere, we read in Hebrews 3:14-15 “For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
To be a partaker of Christ they would have to be a Christian. To have that blessing, they’d have salvation in Christ. To be made partaker of the Holy Ghost could also mean the same as become partaker in Christ.
These Christians had tasted and experienced the word of God to the point they were in the truth and in the light, but they were being warned that if they fall away from the gospel of Christ and resort back to Judaism..that as long as they remained in that fallen state, it would be impossible to renew them again unto repentance because they had left and forsook the only means whereby they can receive redemption.
This is not to imply that they can never repent or that it is impossible for them to repent, but it does mean that when dealing with someone who has known the truth but actively chooses to stay in sin and intends to dwell in sin, you have an insurmountable task on your hands. The individual knows the truth but continues to sin, and there is nothing further to offer to persuade them to stop. It must be the sinner's decision to repent. We cannot renew them back to repentance. They must choose to repent for themselves. It is when a person continues to sin despite understanding that it is wrong, the situation changes dramatically.
So, these individuals in Hebrew 6:4-6 are those who stopped following Jesus (Jn. 10v27) to have eternal life (v28).
In John 6:37, notice the phrase “comes to Me”. If anyone becomes lost it is because they casted themselves out by no longer coming to Jesus (which is the same as no longer following Him).
3000 on Pentecost, for example, that came to Him, He didn't cast any of them out. He didn't refuse forgiveness to any of them. So, what will happen if one does not come to Jesus anymore?
With regards to John 6:39, verse 40 says “the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Notice the words “believes in Him”. What happens if someone no longer believes in the Son?
In order to have eternal life and never perish we must continue to follow Jesus, as well as continue to believe in Jesus to not be casted out. In that same chapter….many of Jesus disciples walked with Him no more (John 6:66). They were at one time walking with Jesus, but did not walk no more. Also, the same person (Jesus) that said John 6:37, 39 also said to continue in my word (John 8:31). Therefore, the ones that Jesus will not lose or cast out are those who continue to come to Jesus, continue in His word, continue to believe, continue to walk with Jesus, and continue to follow Jesus. Those will be the ones that will not be cast out who will have everlasting life.
John 10:27 — The sheep who follow the good shepherd (Jn 10:27, 14) will be given eternal life and will never be snatched/plucked (v28-29). That promise is for those who follow Him (v27). In Christ, there is now no condemnation to those who walk according to the Spirit (Rom. 8:1).
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
Notice the words, “follow me”
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Who are the “them”? They are the sheep who “follow me [Jesus].
Hebrews 6:4-6
These people that the Hebrew writer was writing to were enlightened with saving knowledge as Christians. They had experienced the light, and God is light (1 John 1:5).
These people were Christians.
They had shared (made partakers) of the Holy Ghost. This is probably referencing to miraculous abilities they had or that they had witnessed. It could also be referring to being a Christian by being made partakers of the Spirit by having a relationship with Him after obedience to the gospel.
Elsewhere, we read in Hebrews 3:14-15 “For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
To be a partaker of Christ they would have to be a Christian. To have that blessing, they’d have salvation in Christ. To be made partaker of the Holy Ghost could also mean the same as become partaker in Christ.
These Christians had tasted and experienced the word of God to the point they were in the truth and in the light, but they were being warned that if they fall away from the gospel of Christ and resort back to Judaism..that as long as they remained in that fallen state, it would be impossible to renew them again unto repentance because they had left and forsook the only means whereby they can receive redemption.
This is not to imply that they can never repent or that it is impossible for them to repent, but it does mean that when dealing with someone who has known the truth but actively chooses to stay in sin and intends to dwell in sin, you have an insurmountable task on your hands. The individual knows the truth but continues to sin, and there is nothing further to offer to persuade them to stop. It must be the sinner's decision to repent. We cannot renew them back to repentance. They must choose to repent for themselves. It is when a person continues to sin despite understanding that it is wrong, the situation changes dramatically.
So, these individuals in Hebrew 6:4-6 are those who stopped following Jesus (Jn. 10v27) to have eternal life (v28).
In John 6:37, notice the phrase “comes to Me”. If anyone becomes lost it is because they casted themselves out by no longer coming to Jesus (which is the same as no longer following Him).
3000 on Pentecost, for example, that came to Him, He didn't cast any of them out. He didn't refuse forgiveness to any of them. So, what will happen if one does not come to Jesus anymore?
With regards to John 6:39, verse 40 says “the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Notice the words “believes in Him”. What happens if someone no longer believes in the Son?
In order to have eternal life and never perish we must continue to follow Jesus, as well as continue to believe in Jesus to not be casted out. In that same chapter….many of Jesus disciples walked with Him no more (John 6:66). They were at one time walking with Jesus, but did not walk no more. Also, the same person (Jesus) that said John 6:37, 39 also said to continue in my word (John 8:31). Therefore, the ones that Jesus will not lose or cast out are those who continue to come to Jesus, continue in His word, continue to believe, continue to walk with Jesus, and continue to follow Jesus. Those will be the ones that will not be cast out who will have everlasting life.
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Since we can choose life (Deut. 30:19), then we can also choose not to want that life anymore. One cannot say they never chose in the first place. It would be like saying I decided to choose the NKJV, but overtime I decided not to want to use it anymore, so I never chose it in the first place. Or, I have decided to choose to take a job at this company, and after years of being there I decided it was not for me, so I decided to choose another. Yet, that just shows I never chose it in the first place. It’s not logical to suggest one was saved but then never saved.
Luke 15 and the parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, I would hope give comfort to those who fear they are able to do something to lose salvation,or have Jesus cast them out.
The Prodigal son parable is precious. Because at its end even as we read of that son leaving his father and squandering his early inheritance we learn in the end,the Prodigal returned home.
His father wept with joy and celebrated with a feast. Because, while the Prodigal chose to leave home, he was forever and always his father's son.
Amen
The Prodigal son parable is precious. Because at its end even as we read of that son leaving his father and squandering his early inheritance we learn in the end,the Prodigal returned home.
His father wept with joy and celebrated with a feast. Because, while the Prodigal chose to leave home, he was forever and always his father's son.
Amen
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I suspect you love to think things you rown way.
When you Merit Something, you earn it.
You merit a wage,
You merit a reward.
I usually do not like to use an english dictionary to discuss a biblical term. But in this case I will make an exception
Merit is a noun that means worthiness, excellence, or the quality of being deserving of praise. For example, you might receive a certificate of merit in school for doing a good job. As a verb, merit means to deserve.
merit
1 of 2noun
mer·it ˈmer-ət
ˈme-rət
pluralmerits
Synonyms of merit
1a : a praiseworthy quality : virtue
But originality, as it is one of the highest, is also one of the rarest, of merits.—Edgar Allan Poe
b: character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem
also : achievement
… he composed a number of works of merit.—H. E. Starr
c: a person's qualities, actions, etc. regarded as indicating what the person deserves to receive
Opinions of his merit vary.
Admissions officers judge one's merit by looking at one's past accomplishments and circumstances. But merit is not just about one's past—it is about one's future potential.—Michelle I. Gao
d obsolete : reward or punishment due
You already merit punishment, we all do. We are undeserving of anything, and what we deserve to recieve is Hell
If you want to try to merit (deserve, seek honor in yourself, according to your past or future deeds or accomplishments) the reward of salvation,
You will lose.
When you Merit Something, you earn it.
You merit a wage,
You merit a reward.
I usually do not like to use an english dictionary to discuss a biblical term. But in this case I will make an exception
Merit is a noun that means worthiness, excellence, or the quality of being deserving of praise. For example, you might receive a certificate of merit in school for doing a good job. As a verb, merit means to deserve.
merit
1 of 2noun
mer·it ˈmer-ət
ˈme-rət
pluralmerits
Synonyms of merit
1a : a praiseworthy quality : virtue
But originality, as it is one of the highest, is also one of the rarest, of merits.—Edgar Allan Poe
b: character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem
also : achievement
… he composed a number of works of merit.—H. E. Starr
c: a person's qualities, actions, etc. regarded as indicating what the person deserves to receive
Opinions of his merit vary.
Admissions officers judge one's merit by looking at one's past accomplishments and circumstances. But merit is not just about one's past—it is about one's future potential.—Michelle I. Gao
d obsolete : reward or punishment due
You already merit punishment, we all do. We are undeserving of anything, and what we deserve to recieve is Hell
If you want to try to merit (deserve, seek honor in yourself, according to your past or future deeds or accomplishments) the reward of salvation,
You will lose.
Pride,
It is against human nature to receive a handout. It is our nature to want to earn or at least have a hand in things (granted. there are many who are so prideful they will take any handout and use and abuse peoples love)
so human nature decries the gift of salvation based on God coming to earth and suffering the death of the cross because of their sin. They DEMAND they have to do something, have some part. because pride again, refuses a handout
It is against human nature to receive a handout. It is our nature to want to earn or at least have a hand in things (granted. there are many who are so prideful they will take any handout and use and abuse peoples love)
so human nature decries the gift of salvation based on God coming to earth and suffering the death of the cross because of their sin. They DEMAND they have to do something, have some part. because pride again, refuses a handout
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best to just post the whole passage
John 10: 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
1. My Sheep (those who belong to Christ) Hear my voice (present active, it is ongoing)
2. They (my sheep) follow me - present active, ongoing
3. I give them (my sheep) eternal life - present active ongoing
4. They (my sheep) will never perish - Never means never
5. No one can snatch us (My sheep) out of Jesus hands - verb future active (ongoing)
6, no one can snatch us (My sheep) out of the fathers hand - verb-present-active (ongoing)
This is one massive passage which secures eternal salvation to the sheep of Jesus. This is not a calvinist thing, this is an eternal thing.
Jesus made it clear in another passage. Even if a sheep wanders (which we are prone to do) he leaves the flock, and comes after us, we hear his voice and know it. and we follow him.
John 10: 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
1. My Sheep (those who belong to Christ) Hear my voice (present active, it is ongoing)
2. They (my sheep) follow me - present active, ongoing
3. I give them (my sheep) eternal life - present active ongoing
4. They (my sheep) will never perish - Never means never
5. No one can snatch us (My sheep) out of Jesus hands - verb future active (ongoing)
6, no one can snatch us (My sheep) out of the fathers hand - verb-present-active (ongoing)
This is one massive passage which secures eternal salvation to the sheep of Jesus. This is not a calvinist thing, this is an eternal thing.
Jesus made it clear in another passage. Even if a sheep wanders (which we are prone to do) he leaves the flock, and comes after us, we hear his voice and know it. and we follow him.
Wow, you have no clue what these parables are about.
In all three parables are about something lost.
All three lost items were found because of the effort of someone.
The parables are about the effort to find the lost items.
Many things are lost but there is no guarantee that all things will be found.
It was the effort of the shepherd, woman and son that caused the items to be found.
Why did the father celebrate? Because his son was now alive not because "he was forever and always his father's son".
The prodigal son was dead and lost there was no celebrating until the son made the effort to return.
There was no celebrating for the sheep or coin until and only if they were found.
Many things are lost and many things are never found, regardless of what or who they are.
In all three parables are about something lost.
All three lost items were found because of the effort of someone.
The parables are about the effort to find the lost items.
Many things are lost but there is no guarantee that all things will be found.
It was the effort of the shepherd, woman and son that caused the items to be found.
Why did the father celebrate? Because his son was now alive not because "he was forever and always his father's son".
The prodigal son was dead and lost there was no celebrating until the son made the effort to return.
There was no celebrating for the sheep or coin until and only if they were found.
Many things are lost and many things are never found, regardless of what or who they are.
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